Becoming an Architect - Many Paths, One Profession

In this episode of Architecturally Speaking, host Ryan Schwartz speaks with                    Vineetha Sivathasan and Joël León, two architects who have recently achieved important milestones in their careers. They discuss the process of becoming an architect and provide insights for those interested in pursuing this profession. Tune in to learn more about the journey to becoming an architect and the impact of architecture on our daily lives.

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Transcript

[Start of recorded material 00:00:00]

Ryan:                [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Ryan Schwartz, the host of Architecturally Speaking. Please note that the following episode was recorded before recent changes to the OAA’s licencing structure. The OAA technology program and associated membership status no longer apply. The interview still touches on several topics of interest to architects and non-architects alike. We hope you enjoy. 

Hello and welcome. You're listening to Architecturally Speaking, a new podcast series created by the Ontario Association of Architects. We're pulling back the curtain to explore the architectural profession, what architects to, and how their buildings affect our lives each and every single day. My name is Ryan Schwartz. I'm an architect licenced in Ontario, and your host for the series. And today we're speaking with not one but two guests for the first time. We have Vineetha Sivathasan and Joel Leon. 

So in the past few years they’ve both overcome a handful of important professional milestones on the road to becoming architects and that’s exactly what we’ll be talking about today, becoming an architect. So welcome to you both and thanks for joining. 

Joel:                  [00:01:02] Thanks for having us, 

Vineetha:          [00:01:03] Thank you for having us, Ryan. 

Ryan:                [00:01:05] So I think this will be an interesting episode for the broader audience, and especially anyone that’s interested in becoming an architect themselves, or maybe they know someone that’s interested in becoming an architect. So just for a little bit of context for those folks listening, where are you both roughly in terms of your career? How far along are you? And Vineetha, we can start with you. 

Vineetha:          [00:01:24] I'm just waiting for the paperwork, so I'm pretty close. Just everything is submitted. Just waiting for the actual certification so I can call myself an architect in Ontario. 

Ryan:                [00:01:37] Amazing. Almost there. And what about you, Joel? 

Joel:                  [00:01:39] I'm just a few months ahead. I got, licenced in July and got my paperwork and got it back from the framers in December. So now it can go on a wall. [Laughter]. 

Ryan:                [00:01:50] I was going to say, “Is it on the wall?” but almost. OK, that’s the final step, I guess. 

So, I guess in terms of that vein, how long has it taken you both to get to this point? 

Vineetha:          [00:02:05] I want to say “too long.” But you know, you go at your own pace. So I believe it’s been three and a half years of master’s and then another three to four years of getting your experience and doing your exam and whatnot. So it’s just, you know, whenever you feel like you're ready to go ahead and have enough experience to write the exam. So you can go at your own pace. 

Ryan:                [00:02:34] And what about yourself, Joel? How long has it taken you to get to this point? 

Joel:                  [00:02:38] For me I can give some dates because I have them right in front of me. I got my undergraduate in 2011 and then my master’s in 2015. At that time UofT had a weird three-and-a-half-year master’s, so it took that much longer. Now it’s down to three. And I just got licenced in July. So I don't want to add up all those years, because yes it feels like a long time. But it’s been a journey. 

Ryan:                [00:03:09] It really adds up. So it’s quite a process to get a licence. It’s a bit of a marathon. So it probably makes sense – there’s a lot of steps kind of involved in this process, so it probably makes sense to go back to the beginning and we can kind of walk through this chronologically. So how did you both stumble upon architecture in the first place? What interested you or where did this interest for architecture buildings, where did this come from? 

Vineetha:          [00:03:32] I can start. I actually got into the UofT program for economics and math major. And while I was doing that during the first year I realized that I don’t want to go ahead with a math major. It’s not – you know. I like math but I don't love math enough to put myself through all that. [Laughter]. And I took a lot of art history and architecture history courses as options to keep – because I always loved drawing and painting and being creative that way, so I took a lot of those courses and I realized, oh, architecture is where I can sort of combine – 

Ryan:                [00:04:14] Can marry – 

Vineetha:          [00:04:16] – my love for math, science and practical thinking as well as to be creative. And from then on I decided, OK, this is what I want to be doing and this is what I enjoy doing. And I guess part of it might be slightly [heredictory? 00:04:31] because my dad was a civil engineer from Sri Lanka so he’s always building things and I watch him do that. So it’s always been embedded in some ways. 

Ryan:                [00:04:42] A little bit of influence there for sure. 

Vineetha:          [00:04:44] Yes. 

Ryan:                [00:04:45] What about you Joel? Mine came maybe a little bit earlier already in high school when I was trying to consider what I was going to do. Architecture was kind of one of the two things. It was either going to be politics or architecture, two seemingly very different fields, but [there’s? 00:05:00] actually quite a lot in common about convincing people to believe in what you're doing. But a lot of it had to do with the education, I've got to admit as well, in it is a very robust education, arts as well. So we had architecture and art history all my life. We did models for different classes. So when I started architecture school I already had a kind of working knowledge roughly of what architects do. And then it was just trying to figure out what was the path in Canada. Which is very different, because there aren’t undergrads really that are a professional degree in architecture, right? And so when I was looking at universities [00:05:45] here I was, like, “Wait, they don't teach architecture?” 

Ryan:                [00:05:49] Where do we even begin? Exactly. There's a lot of steps in the process. And we’ll get through those. So that kind of brings me to my next question. You both mentioned school a little bit and stepping back into high school, if there’s a student out there that’s thinking about becoming an architect, is there particular classes or art sciences? What do you think provides a good foundation for going that direction? Or maybe both or something else. 

Vineetha:          [00:06:18] I would say art science and physics that are sort of prerequisites. Maybe not arts, I think it’s physics and math that they sort of ask as a prerequisite. But also if you want to sort of expand yourself and have more of an advantage, I would say taking computer graphic design related courses. So AutoCAD or Adobe Suites, Photoshop, Illustrator. Those would definitely put you at an advantage technically so that you’d know the basis of the software, so everything else you can sort of figure out and it’ll make it easier. Sorry, Joel. 

Joel:                  [00:07:06] Yes, no, I mean interestingly enough, I was going to kind of encourage – there’s kind of those base courses, but what I've really observed in a very long journey of licencing is, schools have changed their requirements every few years. They drop the courses that they were going to make prerequisites, they put in new ones, they change the curriculum so much that it’s a bit of a hard chase of, like, if you were trying to think, “OK, this is really going to get me ready.” In part because every school of architecture in Canada is completely different. So some are really technical, some are more humanities based, some are big picture, some are closer to engineering.

And so I think a lot of it has to do with, you know, you can be pretty broad in what you take. There are a lot of programs in Canada that do not have prerequisites to enter into the architecture program. Not a ton, but there are some. And because you do still have your undergrad to do, you kind of have an opportunity there to maybe explore some courses in architecture while you're doing your undergrad, kind of figure out if you really want to do it as a profession. Because if you don't have that exposure kind of before you start university, it’s not a bad idea to start diving in early, but kind of taking a peek, see if that's really the fit, and what you think architecture is, whether that’s really what you’re getting into. Because it’s very different. People who studied in Waterloo or studied at UofT, or studied at Ryerson have completely different experiences of what their coursework were and whether you needed math or not, or whether you need physics or not. 

Ryan:                [00:08:54] I agree. A little bit of just a broad general education in a bunch of different things, that will kind of give you a nice little baseline. 

Vineetha:          [00:09:02] And can I just add that we're more than happy to talk to any students who are looking to pursue a career in architecture, and I've talked to people before and they just have general questions about what it’s like. And people are also happy to have you shadow them and see what you do day-to-day. And it’s just a matter of finding architects and that can be done through the OAA website, and then just contact them and say, you know, “Looking at a career in architecture. Can I have half an hour of time?” And it’s easier with Zoom or – you know, so you don't have to meet in person if you don't want to. And I think I would encourage that just to know what you're doing and what to look forward to. That’s just another little note. 

Ryan:                [00:09:51] Totally. Yes, I found most architects are more than willing to give a little bit of time to someone that’s interested and share their experiences along the way. And we can get into some more contact information at the end for yourselves and for the OAA. 

So at this point, high school’s done. What’s next? You’re moving on to an undergraduate degree or a technical diploma. What’s the nest step after high school? Maybe Joel, I’ll start with you. 

Joel:                  [00:10:16] Yes, so I mean in Canada you really have kind of two options at that point. There is kind of the longer path, which is if, you know, you’re aiming to be an architect then you're going to do kind of an undergraduate in one of the accredited schools of architecture. There’s only 14 of them. So, not as much choice as there are with other degrees. And they're all quite different. Or you can become an architectural technologist, and that is a different path. It is through the college system. And those are three-year degrees as opposed to kind of the four-year undergraduate degree. And there’s also paths for licensure for architectural technologists as well as there’s paths for different kinds of work. 

And both of them work in architectural offices. Both of them do a lot of similar work. So it really is, which is the better path for each person? 

Ryan:                [00:11:21] Anything to add, Vineetha? 

Vineetha:          [00:11:22] And at least for the UofT program, when I was there, they told me to have a degree in architecture for your bachelor’s to do your master’s, and there are few universities who offer that. So I had friends who did biology or finance and then they decided architecture is what they want to do, so they pursue their master’s. So that is a possibility. 

I didn't do my bachelor’s in architecture. I did economics and art history. So, my degrees somewhat relate, but not completely. So I didn't have the studio experience, like, anyone who did their bachelor’s in architecture would have. So that is a possibility if you have different interests. And you do take a lot of knowledge from doing a bachelor’s in a different part, or a different industry and then you bring it to your architecture master’s, and there’s a wide range of knowledge that you have that you can use. So that is another option. 

Ryan:                [00:12:35] I think that's a great point, and it’ll be encouraging for some people, too, to know that you don't have to pick this career choice when you’re 18 or something. You can be quite a ways down the road and completely switch and still become an architect and do what you need to do. And you can make that switch later in life. And I’d say in my class there was at least 25 to maybe 40 per cent of the students came from a completely different background. So it’s always kind of nice to get that influx of different disciplines and things too. So that's great. 

So the next step, shocker, is more schooling. You finish your undergraduate degree and the next step is a master’s. What can you tell us about that? 

Joel:                  [00:13:16] Well for that one, again, every school’s really different. You have those 14 schools that can give a master’s or architecture in Canada. So, what you're guaranteed because they’re accredited is that they all cover the basics, all the regulators in architecture have gotten together, kind of said, “This is what you need to teach and you need to make sure people know this before they get out of school.” So you kind of know you’re covered in that aspect with all those schools. But how they teach it can be radically different. And some master’s are very short compared to others. So some are a two-year degree, some are now a three-year. I don't think anyone has anymore three-and-a-half. And then some are co-op, so you get to do placements as part of your master’s, and others are kind of just straight through, you’re just doing classes right?

It’s a long path. You feel you've had a lot of education and then you’re still [00:14:16] doing more education. Right? We’re talking about six to eight years. And some of them have requirements to have a degree before the more technical, like the shorter ones. Others, though, don't like the UofT one. That’s the same one Vineetha and I did. So we had a very diverse class, so your first year ends up being kind of almost, say, a skill leveling year. You’re learning a lot about people who didn't do their undergraduate in architecture, and those who didn’t do architecture are quickly learning drawing and modelling to kind of catch up on those skills. 

And yes, it’s a very intense master’s, I will say. Almost monastic because you don't really leave the studio [laughter]. 

Ryan:                [00:15:07] We’ll definitely dive into that. What about you, Vineetha? Anything to add in terms of the master’s part? The master’s portion? 

Vineetha:          [00:15:16] I mean I was one of those people who went in without what you expect, and I thought, you know, it’ll be like my bachelor’s program where I went into class, and I study or do my essays, you know, a week or two beforehand, and that’s how it’s going to be. But I was proven wrong that it’s a full day and night sort of course. And it’s intense. I'm not going to lie. So, first semester, at least, you take it as – to see if that’s a type of program you want to be in. And if that’s a culture that you want to do – it gets easier, but first semester as someone who’s going in there without any set of background knowledge of our studio culture or the architecture program itself, it was tough. I'm not going to say. I didn't even know how to use the software, actually. So I knew Photoshop and the Adobe suites, but [00:16:16] Rhino or AutoCAD and Revit, I didn't know how to do. And there was some training provided but it wasn't enough to know to the extent of what we needed to do and the complex logics we had to do. 

So I had to teach myself all those pretty quickly, YouTube videos and books. So it’s a fulltime, 24 hours sort of endeavour and [unintelligible 00:16:43]. So, there’s a few things you learn along the way and you get better at it. And then you know, you know, by second year you know the software as well and you know how to find the resources and what is expected. So, you get better and you adapt and you survive, but you take first semester as an opportunity to sort of say, “OK, this is what I really want to do.” You know, if you don't want to do it then I would just – wouldn't pursue, right? If that’s not where your passion is at then it just seems [00:17:16] like a waste of time and you would rather be doing something else you’re passionate about. It’s not to scare you, I'm just telling sort of the realities of the program itself is just – 

But at the end of it, I think, you will feel like you achieved something. So, it’s so big, because when you start up it’s like, “Oh, I don't know how I'm going to survive this.” But you come out of it, “Oh, remember? I didn't know how to draw stairs.” And then somebody, a reviewer had commented it looked like a corkscrew because I didn't kind of it had to be 90 degrees because it didn't come to my mind. But then, by the time I was like, [unintelligible 00:17:58] I'm like, “I know how to do stairs now,” you know. I was teaching people. So it’s just – you get better at it just like any program. 

Ryan:                [00:18:07] It’s pretty intense. Yes, there's a lot to learn, and you also have to learn the tools at the same time. And it can get pretty overwhelming. I'd be curious to see what the dropout rate would be after a semester or something, because I'm sure it’s probably up there. I don't know if anyone has any idea. 

Vineetha:          [00:18:26] At least, I don't know the exact rate, but I know a few people I was in studio with decided it’s not something that they want to pursue, and they pursued other similar things. Some people went into interior design and other people went into fashion design, and others just said, “You know what? I don't want to do a master’s anymore. I just want to start working and be part of the workforce and see what I want to do.” 

So, yes, I was surprised to know that out of the 10 people that were in my studio, at least three of them I didn't see the next semester. So. That’s just my studio so it could be different for different studios. Joel, you might have a better numbers maybe. 

Joel:                  [00:19:11] Yes, I mean, I don't think there’s been a study done on it, although I would be very curious to see it as well. But I thought the reality is, like any program that is that long, you know, life happens and I think oftentimes we get kind of confused [at? 00:19:31] like, licensure [in? 00:19:31] becoming and architect is the only way of working in the industry. But there are lots of people who work in architect offices that are not architects and can have the training. 

And oftentimes they might – you know, we didn't talk about kind of the idea of doing a gap year, and something between your undergraduate and your master’s, and I know quite a few people who have done that. Actually a lot of the staff that has worked with us at the Toronto Society of Architects are people doing their gap year. And that is, you know, you do your undergrad, you’re still not 100 per cent sure, [but? 00:20:06] you did have an opportunity to get exposed to [00:20:11] how firms work, or you want to make sure that it’s not the horror stories you hear, or that it’s as good as you're hearing. And taking a year to work in a firm – and you might not have a ton of architecture skills at that time, but you already have marketing and communication skills, there’s business development in firms. There’s administration. There’s opportunities to kind of get a job for a year and know a little bit more. 

So you know, it’s kind of the idea that it’s a very long path, and you don't have to go where everyone’s going at the end of the goal because the reality is not everyone is going there. I think there’s kind of that myth that everyone who starts in architectural school is going to become an architect. Very few of the people that we're in my year are licenced. Many of h team kind of took an off-ramp on another adventure in a different profession, or within the profession but they decided [00:21:11]. “Oh, I'm not going to get licenced.” And that’s OK to. You kind of have to adjust it to your personal circumstances. 

Ryan:                [00:21:18] Yes, it’s a long road, and it’s not a race. Exactly like you said, there’s quite a few sort of careers that are aligned with architecture that aren't necessarily architecture and the skills that you learn, I think, in school, really, they can benefit a number of careers. So that’s a great point. 

So taking a step back again, what kind of topics are we learning in architecture school? There’s studios, there’re critiques, you’ve mentioned a few of these. History. What are you basically learning? What are you learning in architectural school? 

Joel:                  [00:21:55] So I'm going to guess this is going to really depend on where people studied in their architecture school, but one common format is the studio. And studio is basically a really fancy way of saying, you’re doing a project, usually it’s a semester-long project. And you’re making, I'm going to say usually a building. It’s not always a building. That is something about architecture school, you don't always start with a building, or you don't always end with a building. I always find it’s either the first year semesters that don't have buildings, or the thesis projects at the end that don't have buildings. In between, usually building. 

And you’re working progressively on that project over time. And it really, I will say, it’s kind of the core of many architecture schools. It’s where you spend most of the time, because it’s your idea, it’s your authorship. You know, you’re trying to advance something and design something, and you get kind of those critiques, which are a very old school way of evaluating architecture projects [00:22:55] comes from the [Ecole? 00:22:57] liberals art in the 1800s, where professors would go around in a room and look at your projects and make comments. Now you’re part of it, so you present. So there’s a lot of presentation skills that come in architecture school. You are standing in front of your jury often and having to explain your project, and what was your intention, and trying to summarize a semester in, like, two minutes. So it has to be very quick. 

And then there’s a lot of other, I would say, kind of supportive courses. They might be history, they might be technical, so you might be learning things like basis of mechanical or basics of structural. There is usually one professional practice course towards the very, very end to straight introducing you to the practice of architecture. 

But I would say in general you’re not learning, necessarily, how to practice architecture in Canada. That’s not kind of the goal of school [00:23:55]. It is instead to kind of understand kind of the – how to make architecture, what is architecture? You know. The higher level so that when you come out into practice, into reality and you have all those real constraints of the world, you can still hold onto a vision, an idea, from beginning to end and be able to deliver that, that despite the fact that in the real world you have a lot more rules than you do in school. 

Vineetha:          [00:24:28] And I can also add that apart from sort of the textbook sort of knowledge, it’s more, like Joel said, soft skills that you're learning, especially communications and presentations which will carry on, and you can transfer to any other profession that you want. And also software that you can use for any other profession you want. Especially the graphic design skills and even AutoCAD and Revit, which you doesn't necessarily have to be for architecture but you can use for interior design or structural engineering, landscape engineering, or if you want to do an artwork. You know, you can do that.

And you also learn how to think critically and not just think literally this is how it should be. Because you're criticized so much for your project and you learn how to think and self-criticize yourself so you know how to make a project better, or sort of [00:25:28] think about it that way. It’s just like, “Oh, what is wrong with this idea?” or “What could be done better?” And you’re always thinking in that way. 

And you also learn go get a thick skin because, you know, you can't take everything personally. All these opinions are sort of subjective and everyone’s opinion differs because they have their own perspectives and views, you know, you had to also sort of – if you believe in the idea you had to be, you know, stand for it and think to it and work out some of the problems. 

So there’s a lot of soft skills that you have to learn. And personally, you also had to learn time management, and how not to burn out, and how to take care of your mental and physical health. And that's something you continue to do even after you graduate from architecture, and just, like any other profession. So, you sort of start to do that if you are conscious of how your mental health or [00:26:28] physical health [there is? 00:26:29] that sometimes if you miss a meal or you had to make it a point to make sure you take care of all those things. So it’s not just architecture but everything else that combines into it. 

I also, at UofC I took a lot more sort of my elective courses were weird sort of courses, sort of like Film and Architecture, or Memory and Architecture. And those type of courses are – there’s one course I was – videogame and how architecture plays a role. And you know, Minecraft is like one module and how that sort of – they used that one cube to build dragons and castles and people and axes. I thought that was very interesting. And you know, you can take fun courses as well. It doesn't have to be strictly theoretical and intense. I took Dictatorship and Architecture, which was intense what – [00:27:28] Dictatorship and Architecture after 1940s. So, after WW II. 

So it was just, like, very interesting sort of courses that you learn a lot more about – a lot more about architecture and the influence and what we can – and it sort of changes your perspective on, “Oh, it’s not just buildings, but there’s so many other aspects that it actually plays a role in. 

So I would [encourage? 00:27:51] taking different electives as well and sort of expand your knowledge. And [it’ll? 00:27:56] also play a role in sort of shaping how you think when you're designing a building and how you theorize things as well. So yes. 

Ryan:                [00:28:10] Yes brought up a really good point, and that’s time management. And I think that kind of leads into another discussion in terms of the culture of architecture school, because it’s – for those that haven't been to architecture school, it is very intense. It can be a lot of hours. It doesn't necessarily have to be that way, but it’s kind of seen as a rite of passage for better or for worse. So maybe we should touch on that for a minute. And Joel, you can start, just about the culture and how to have that work – or the student/life balance, and the intensity of it all. 

Joel:                  [00:28:45] Yes, it’s a topic worthy of a podcast all by itself. But you know, architecture school is very intense. Kind of the idea is that you kind of go in – it’s a very short amount of time to learn a lot of things. And so there’s a lot of hours. And actually when I was in graduate school I was part of the student union and we actually did a mental health survey. And that was the first time we did that at UofT. Now I think it’s become a yearly thing, which is really great. And there's checkpoints throughout the year. Very different than when we were in school. 

And it was interesting, some of the results, you know, people were spending almost 80 hours a week inside of the building. And so the building was really your home. You were spending more time there than you were with your family, if you had family. You know, you were very much, very intense [00:29:45] in school. 

Now that being said, those 80 hours, some of it is spent on projects and working. But others are spent just getting to know all the other people in the building. And I will say, well, there’s a lot of negative things that come from that very intense pace of architecture school. You have to be aware of your own physical health, of your own mental health, making sure you’re exercising, taking breaks, things like that. The really good thing is the friendships you form and the relationships you form, and the people you meet in architecture school. It’s a very small profession, really, here in Canada. The people you meet in architecture school, you will know them for the rest of your life. You will cross paths many times throughout school. 

And so taking the time to kind of form those friendships and those networks, you know, there were people who do go to architecture school, and I find it’s people who are later in their career. They maybe are coming back for their master’s [00:30:45] after working for many years at a firm or something. And they treat it like a 9 to 5 job. They come in, they do the work, they get out. They're not there to talk to people or interact – you know, that’s not their goal. But I do think they miss kind of one of the big things about architecture school, which is getting to know others, getting to know the people [unintelligible 00:31:03]. Maybe getting involved with other things, you know. Had I not been in the student union I don't know if my career path would have been the career path I ended up on now. You know, others [will? 00:31:14] volunteer cafe at UofT, which is a Cafe 059. Still has, I think, the exact same name in those [unintelligible 00:31:23] buildings. So not in room 059 anymore. And that has been around since 1960s, and it’s volunteer run by students. And in part it’s that taking an hour to do your coffee shift [means to? 00:31:36] one hour you're not working on your project and you're talking to people. Right? 

So being part of the culture of [00:31:45] the school I think is a really important part of architecture education. 

Ryan:                [00:31:51] Vineetha, anything to add? 

Vineetha:          [00:31:53] No, I completely agree. I didn't really make really close flagpoles during my bachelors, because my classes were 200, the sizes were quite big. And like I said, I would go to class, come home, take a nap and then study if have to sort of feel. But with master’s, since I was there all the time, at the faculty, that I made friends for life. One of my friends has a child now. She’s married. And it’s weird seeing her that way. [Unintelligible 00:32:25] I remember, we became friends because we helped each other pin up our – you know, our boards for a review and I was panicking and she’s like, “Oh, let me help you,” and that’s how we became friends. 

So we made friends for life, and the social aspect definitely held because we sort of ask each other, “Oh, let’s go do this,” or “We have a break in between and this, let's go to this restaurant,” or “Let’s go [00:32:53] play pool downstairs at the student center.” Oh, the cafe 59 there was lounge space. And I remember sleeping on the couch because I was in pain, I had cramps. And [unintelligible 00:33:04] like well, you know, this is what I'm going to be doing. And my friends were there to help. So those are memories that I can't forget.

And I definitely say taking the time to volunteer has also [pount? 00:33:21]. I know I didn't volunteer so much when I was doing my master’s, but I was volunteering a lot more when I was doing my bachelor’s, which was also at UofT, and I carried some of the ones forward, and I was part of the Hart House Art Committee, and we would do shows and look at art as part of the committee. And I also worked at the art museum, so had a [workshop? 00:33:48] that I had to work when I was doing my master’s and I'm [00:33:53] glad I had to work. 

Ryan:                [00:33:53] [Cross talk 00:33:53] a little bit. 

Vineetha:          [00:33:55] And I'm glad that I had to work, because then I would take the time that I was at the gallery to talk to people who were coming to the art shows and talk to them about art and also painting and drawing and go to opening nights for that. So it was just like two separate worlds in some ways, but also similar. So I needed that break in between – if you've been to UofT you know the architecture school is on the Spadina side and Hart House, which is where the art museum is, near the University line. So they're at two opposite ends. So you pretty much have to go across where the boundaries of UofT’s are, which was a great walk. 

Ryan:                [00:34:39] That’s your exercise right there. Exactly. 

Vineetha:          [00:34:40] It’s just like a great exercise and I loved it. And that also paved a lot of my interest in art and architecture in that sense as well. And talking to different people of different age groups, that helps, because then you’re not just in the siloes of talking to only architecture-minded people who are only in studio. But from volunteering at different programs and events you just meet a lot more diverse people. 

I remember signing up to volunteer at a Food Bank because I saw a sign and like, “Oh, let me go help out this one day.” And this will help with my mental health and it’ll help clear my head because I can't always think about architecture.” I met a lot of great people there as well. So it’s – it doesn't have to be – you don't have always volunteer for architecture related organizations. You could volunteer for similar [00:35:40] interests, you know, UofT has great clubs and I'm sure all universities have different committees and clubs that you can join and be part of that. And I think that would also be part of sort of your time away from architecture, but also you’re developing relationships and friendships that would help you sort of expand your network and skill sets. And you never know who [you? 00:36:01] might need architectural services in the future. You know. 

Ryan:                [00:36:06] I think it’s like you said, it’s healthy to get out of that bubble a little bit and not just live in not just the building but the world of architecture itself. So that’s a great point. 

                          So at this point you finish your undergraduate degree, you finish your master’s degree. The next step becoming an intern. So maybe, Joel, you can speak about that for a moment, what that entails. Mentoring, that’s an important point. So what’s involved in being an intern? 

Joel:                  [00:36:33] Yes, so being an intern architect it’s basically it’s just a period where you’re still training a lot and learning how to actually practice architecture, but now you are in the working world, you are paid a wage. There’s always kind of this misunderstanding of what intern can mean. This is not the word intern as it’s in a common use of, you know, someone who is there kind of maybe working for free, although that is illegal in Canada and no one should accept that. This is actually, you know, you are a professional. You just don't have your licence with the OAA quite yet. You’re in the process of doing that. 

And that requires – there’s kind of three components to it. On the one hand you’re doing your hours, so you’re gaining experience in different areas of practice, and logging those hopefully every six months, although [00:37:33] I am not the shining example of that. And you are also going to be talking with a mentor. And the mentor’s someone outside your practice who does have a licence, who can give you advice and kind of be a sounding board. And that relationship really kind of depends on you finding someone that you can kind of connect and have a discussion with. And that will understand, also, your goals. Like, I tried to find someone who volunteered a lot as well and undo the value of volunteering. Because when I started my internship I got a lot of architects saying, “Why are you wasting time not working on your house? You should just be focused on that.” And I was like, “Well, I don't want to do that if can't volunteer and do other things –” 

Ryan:                [00:38:26] There’s more to life. 

Joel:                  [00:38:27] Yes, I tried to find someone who was – there are many architects that are that. So you just have to kind of ask around. You’re also doing your admissions course, which is an OAA course. It’s now offered online. Really, really great and really straightforward to do, and it’s kind of covering a lot of aspects of practice and then hopefully by the end of all that you will take your exams. And they're not really things you have to take at the very end. You can take them halfway – I think it’s two-thirds of your hours, something like that, where you have to be at. So it’s not really necessarily the last step. You might want to do it a little bit earlier. I found it was easier to do once I had all my hours that I needed for the exam, because I was like, I still know how to study from school, and I'm not that far removed from my master’s that I have forgotten how to study for exams. So let’s do it now. 

And it’s a [00:39:27] weird time because, I think, you’re working and you’re professional and you have all the responsibilities that a professional has. Yes just don't have the title of architect. So you’re also – I almost say you’re doing another job on top of your job. The job of logging your hours and writing what they are and keeping up with that. It takes time and it takes dedication to kind of get through it. 

Vineetha:          [00:39:51] And I think it’s generally easier if you don't have any sort of commitments in terms of if you don't have anyone to take care of or if you don't have other sort of responsibilities. Because if you have kids or if you have a baby on the way. Although I met a lot of people who decided to start their own firm or whatnot after they're on mat leave, which is sort of interesting because she’s like, “Oh, I thought you would need to spend a lot of time with your child.” But it’s, like, “No, I got bored and I need to start my firm right now and bring on extra stress.” 

But you know, a lot of people thrive in that sort of, like, pressure environment. So it depends on people to people for sure. But if you – life happens, like we said, and some people, it might be harder to allocate that time, so they might push it further. Other people they're just hyper-focused and this is what they want and they decide to do the linear path. So it just all depends [00:40:51] on person to person. And like Joel said, it is very – it is disciplined, especially if you’re studying during summer and you do have a fulltime job, that is demanding, then you do have to make a schedule for yourself and sacrifice, maybe, your social life for a few months to study, or, you know, choose which events you want to go to, or which friends you want to spend time with, and then the other ones can wait for a couple of months until your studies [unintelligible 00:41:22] say no to meeting your family for a couple of weeks when you study. 

So it is intense, but there’s also resources and friends and study groups. Some firms have study groups that you can join, and they’ll keep you accountable. But if you’re the type of person like me, I just like to study on my own, because there’s a lot of pressure when you have to study as a group. [Unintelligible 00:41:46] “Did you do this –” like oh no, I didn't. But [00:41:51] it’s not part of my schedule. So it would get me overwhelmed and anxious, so I like to study on my own and then touch base to see what I missed. So you can go at your own pace and then go from there. 

And also, there are four exams with the [unintelligible 00:42:06] that you have to study for, and there is a pressure for you to pass all four of them. But you don't have to. If you fail two out of the four or fail one out of the four you can always retake it. It doesn't mean you’re a failure, but you're just – oh, you know, you just didn't do well in one out of the four, which you can retake again and you know what to expect for and what to study. So it just makes it easier to pass the second time around it. 

It is a long process, but it’s a milestone that people want to reach. And if they do want to reach that then go for it and get it over with when you still know how to [00:42:51] study, or write exams and memorize things. You know. 

Ryan:                [00:42:57] And you both touched on this a little bit, and I think it’s an interesting point, Joel, about finding a mentor that suits you and sort of suits what you’re looking to get out of it. And Vineetha, about finding a social group to sort of work with. What kind of groups or I don't know, social – yes, the social groups, what kind of groups are there? Like there’s societies, local societies, things like that. What should people be looking for if they want to get in touch with architects or people just in the profession just to learn more? 

Vineetha:          [00:43:29] I'm part of BEAT, which is Building Equality in Architecture Toronto, and I'm an executive committee member. And we are a national not-for-profit, so there’s different chapters across Canada now. And so that’s one of the organizations, and we do public programs relating to women in architecture and diversity and equity. So anyone is welcome to join, and people usually come there to meet mentors or people that they look up to. And if you’re at an event, like a seminar and one of the speakers sort of resonates with you, you can go up to them and talk to them and be, like, “Hey, I'm looking for a mentor for my internship, can we chat and see if we're right for each other?” Because it’s almost like you're figuring out if this person is right for you as much as them, you know – because they're going to allocate time for you as well, so you just want to make sure it’s the right fit. 

But [00:44:29] I also think apart from the OAA mentor, which is required if you want to get your licence, you can have multiple different members who are unofficial members that you talk to and get advice on. It doesn't have to be one person, per se. It can be different people. Because people have different perspectives and views and, you know, you should talk to as many people as you want. And if architects maybe your age or older or much older, depending on who you’re interested in, I think people [are? 00:45:07] almost always happy to share their experience and share their wisdom with you, and give you their opinion, as long as they have the time to spare for you. And most often people do and they're pretty great about it. 

And there are other organizations like BAIDA, which is a Black architects association. And SOSA, which a South Asian architects. And I [00:45:31] believe Joel is going to touch on the societies so I'm going to pass it on to you. 

Joel:                  [00:45:36] Sure, I’ll take it for there. I mean there’s so many different organizations out there, and local societies, of course is – it’s actually a really unique thing. Only Ontario has them and they're kind of part of really our unique legacy of how we became a regulated profession. And a local society is just a group of architects, basically. And they started very social in nature about just chatting with each other, talking about each other’s work. They're much bigger now, but they really range. They're all over Ontario. And the smallest society, I think, has about 12 people in it. And the largest society, that one is the one I do the programming for, Toronto Society of Architects, we have 2,400. So very different in scales. 

And a lot of it is they're places to meet people. So we run networking events, we [00:46:36] run lectures, tours. And those are those opportunities to go meet people outside of your office that might have different points of view. So I find it really valuable for finding a mentor or realizing that, hey, maybe there’s something your practice is doing that you thought is standard practice and it is not. You won't know that until you start talking to other people in other practices. Right? 

But there’s also the Architecture Conservancy of Ontario, and they have branches all over Ontario and they deal with more kind of heritage issues. And there’s groups that appear all the time. There’s new groups trying to reach different audiences. And we have tried a little bit more the last few years to coordinate among all these groups and network. So if you know one of them, they probably have the contact for all the other ones and can really help you kind of explore what are those other groups. Because [00:47:36] again, small profession, so even though there are many groups we all know each other and the people who are working on them, and are always looking for opportunities to kind of do things together. 

But yes, there’s lots of groups to get out there and get involved. 

Ryan:                [00:47:52] That’s perfect. That’s helpful. So, for anyone also interested in more information relating to education or certification, licencing, I’d highly recommend that they go to the OAA’s website, that’s the Ontario Association of Architects. That’s at OAA.on.ca. And that also goes for anyone coming from, say, another country with an architecture education or licence, they can sort of see what the route is for them specifically. 

And that will bring us to the rapid fire section of the questions. So we’ll just quickly run through this and – don't worry, they're nice and easy. So on a scale of 1 to 10, how messy is your desk right now? 

Joel:                  [00:48:33] Eleven. 

Vineetha:          [00:48:36] Mine is about 7 because I don't usually work from home. But at my office it would be more messy. 

Ryan:                [00:48:45] Perfect. Are there any favourite buildings or cities that you have in terms of architecture? 

Joel:                  [00:48:54] Favourite building, right now. It changes by day, but today I'm feeling Robarts Library. City – I will always have a love for [unintelligible 00:49:04]. 

Vineetha:          [00:49:08] I can't think of a favourite city off the top of my head. But say for building, I really want to say John Andrews, UofT building. Because I used to study there a lot and people used to hate the [unintelligible 00:49:21] architecture but I loved it. 

Ryan:                [00:49:24] Bonus points for an Ontario building. So that’s great. 

                          Next question, so no budget or building code restraints, what would you change about your house or your apartment, condo, whatever it may be? 

Vineetha:          [00:49:38] To make it better acoustically so I won't hear people talking from the bedroom, or people above. And we also have – 

Joel:                  [00:49:50] I was going to say solid-core doors. 

Ryan:                [00:49:52] Same kind of thing then, yes. All right. Next question. Fill in the blank. The best buildings are, blank. 

Joel:                  [00:50:04] Fun. 

Vineetha:          [00:50:06] Functional. 

Ryan:                [00:50:08] Good answers. Good answer. And the last one, are there any favourite resources that you might recommend? Like books, documentaries, websites, we mentioned some groups. Anything else where people can go to learn more about architecture? 

Vineetha:          [00:50:22] I was going to say JSTOR. You can make an account with them, and you have sort of a limited amount of articles you can read. And I feel like I haven't been doing a lot of academic reading since I've been in the workforce. So I've been getting on that now. So I highly recommend it. 

Joel:                  [00:50:42] Perfect. Visit your local archive. There are so many amazing archives in Canada. So, whether it is in your city or local library, your town that have records and you can go see the original drawings of buildings in your town and maps, and even early concept models. I'm a huge archive nerd and love social spending time at the archives. 

Ryan:                [00:51:08] That’s great. Those are great answers. That’s fantastic. 

Well that wraps up this episode of Architecturally Speaking. We've been chatting with Vineetha Sivathasan and Joel Leon. Thanks again for both sharing your time and all your experience. That’s been great. If people want to get in touch is there a best place to do that on social media or LinkedIn or anything like that? 

Joel:                  [00:51:30] Yes, I'm on all social media platforms with my name, Joel, and the umlaut’s on the E then you know you're in the right person. But also as well with the Toronto Society of Architects, that’s really where you’re going to see a lot of what I share, because I spend more time on their social media than on mine. That is tosoarch on all social media platforms. 

Vineetha:          [00:51:55] And you can find me on LinkedIn. I unfortunately don't have a lot of social media. I do, but I'm not active. Also beatoronto.com is where you can go find more information about BEAT related things, nd you can contact me through that as well. 

Ryan:                [00:52:11] That’s perfect. Fantastic. We’ll be recording many more episodes of this podcast over the coming weeks and months. So if yes have a question about architecture or you know someone who might make a great guest, or you just want to offer some feedback, you can send an email to podcast@oaa.on.ca. You can also visit the OAA’s website at OAA.on.ca. And if you’ve enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review, share this with your friends. That will help us create more episodes in the future. Architecturally Speaking is available wherever you get your podcasts and also on the OAA’s YouTube channel. Be sure to check that out for the full video of this recording. And like and subscribe to be notified when the next episode is released. 

And until next time, I'm Ryan Schwartz and this is Architecturally Speaking. 

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