A Day in the Life of an Architect

In this episode of Architecturally Speaking, host Ryan Schwartz kicks off Season 4 with a behind-the-scenes look at the day-to-day realities of architectural practice.

Ryan speaks with Michael Attard and Doron Meinhard of Hariri Pontarini Architects, who share insights into how their roles have evolved as partners and what a typical day truly looks like beyond the stereotypes of the profession. From design reviews and client meetings to collaboration with engineers, consultants, and city staff, they reveal the wide-ranging responsibilities that shape modern architectural work.

Together, they explore common misconceptions about architects, the importance of communication and teamwork, and the value of site visits in bringing design visions to life. The conversation also highlights the emotional impact of completed projects and the meaningful role architecture plays in shaping communities.

Tune in for an honest and engaging look at the realities of architectural practice and advice for aspiring architects navigating their own professional journeys.

Subscribe now to Architecturally Speaking on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcript

Architecturally Speaking

Episode 17 - A Day in the Life of an Architect

Ryan Schwartz: 00:04 - 01:18

Hi, and welcome back to another episode of Architecturally Speaking. I'm your host, Ryan Schwartz, and this podcast is presented by the Ontario Association of Architects. As we kick off season four in 2026, we'll continue to chat with architects and other industry professionals to pull back the curtain on the architecture profession and give you a little peek behind the scenes. And I think today we'll do a really good job of that because we're looking at a day in the life of an architect and this will actually be a day in the life of two architects because we're lucky enough to have two guests with us again today. They're both experienced architects with Hariri Pontarini Architects in Toronto. So we're joined with Michael Attard and Doran Meinhard. Both gentlemen bring about two decades of experience with some notable projects under their belts, and both also recently became partners at HPA as well. So welcome to you both and also congratulations to you both. Thank you very much. Thank you. So I'm curious to hear how your roles have shifted a little bit after becoming partner at the office and we'll get into that. But first, There can be a lot of misconceptions, you know, among the public about what architects actually do, how we spend our time. So in a few sentences, can you describe the profession and, and the role of an architect kind of in your own experience?

Michael Attard: 01:19 - 01:54

the all order to do it in a few sentences, I guess, but, um, you know, certainly from my end, I think it's the design and delivery of complex mixed use buildings. It's hundreds of decisions that really shape how people experience a place. I think our profession sits at a kind of intersection between design, technical problem solving and coordination with really a huge network of people. And my role is to guide teams, work with clients, and really keep a project's direction clear from the early sketch right through to the final building.

Ryan Schwartz: 01:55 - 01:57

Pretty concise. Doran, what do you think?

Doran Meinhard: 01:58 - 02:56

Yeah, what really, um, you know, ever since I went to school, it really fascinates me about this profession is just the way we. Tangibly work with people on a day in day out basis to really listen to them first to understand their aspirations, what they're looking for and how we can mobilize. a creative culture, a creative culture of young talent and experienced talent to start putting that together for them. And then bring that outside of our office, outside of our studio into the wider realm of working with the outside to fabricate these things and to put them together. And then finally to deliver it. It's really about the experience when you, you know, that feeling of when a building is finally complete and at that stage right before that, where. the owner and the client really starts to take pride in the building and really feel like they designed it themselves is really one of those key moments in a project story that's really amazing.

Ryan Schwartz: 02:56 - 03:07

Okay, that's great. And you mentioned the office and you both obviously work at the same office. Do you generally work on different projects or is there any kind of overlap on the projects that you guys are working on?

Doran Meinhard: 03:08 - 03:29

We mostly work on different projects. Um, we have, uh, you know, a lot of the senior people do work on different projects because really we're working with teams around us. Um, but there is an intersection between the projects and on some of them, Michael and I have collaborated on a couple of larger pursuits and projects together, but generally we do work on different projects.

Michael Attard: 03:30 - 04:03

Our, our office actually has a number of different sectors that we approach, uh, the work with. And so really, um, you know, from the two founding partners, they've been CMAC, they've had different interests and in some ways the project or the projects have grown from their particular interests. And, you know, as Doran said, from my end, I'm chasing after a lot of high rise, mixed use development. Doran's been championing a lot of the cultural buildings, the houses that we've looked at, and that ranges through many, many different types of projects.

Ryan Schwartz: 04:05 - 04:30

That's perfect. Yes. And we'll get sort of two different flavors within the same office. So that's, that's great. And looking at, you know, a typical day or maybe a typical week, you know, what does that look like? Like some people think architects are just sitting there drawing pretty pictures all day. I mean, you already painted a much more complicated, complex version than that. So, you know, what does a typical day look like or a typical week potentially?

Doran Meinhard: 04:31 - 05:45

I mean, for me, I think that's, what's really amazing about architecture is that there is no typical day. I think it is a bit of an adventure every day because primarily, at least for me, we're problem solving at a very high level and with different groups of people. And so those problems move, you know, from project to project, but they're also changing the nature of what we're asked to do. And so it can be, it can go right from like. really, really basic research into, you know, um, human behavior and human comfort, um, uh, to plants, uh, research, botany, ethnobotany, all these kinds of things. And so we're constantly learning new things, you know, I think that's really interesting. I remember going to school and we had a very insular sort of program. We didn't really leave our building too often, but in the midst of that, We got, we did all this research on all these broad topics outside, way outside of architecture. And I remember, you know, people would ask us, are you even doing architecture? And that was when it got really fun. So typical day is a non-typical day and really happy to get like more than 10,000 steps in, in, in our office every day.

Ryan Schwartz: 05:48 - 05:50

How about you, Michael? Similar kind of experience?

Michael Attard: 05:50 - 07:02

I mean, I probably actually do more drawing than I should be doing. I still am doing a lot of design work, a lot of modeling, a lot of rendering. Again, every week is a little bit different, but there are some days where it's just all about preparing a bunch of images and material for a presentation. And sometimes there's four or five presentations a week. Uh, other times it's walking through our model shop, making sure things are actually coming together for an in-person meeting. I mean, the big shift that we've had over the last couple of years has been the shift to these types of, uh, meetings, I would say, which are more online. Previously, we had everything happen in person and collectively together. I think we've actually had a bit of a shift going back to that, which is fun for us to actually have stuff in person because we like to have these things where you are collaborating around a big table in our meeting room. And it allows us to take use of our model shop, which I keep pointing over to, but we do have this kind of in-house model shop and we like to have a lot of these things up front. And at the front of our office, we have a big city model. It's been great for bringing people from city staff in, and we use it really as a tool for driving the design direction.

Ryan Schwartz: 07:04 - 07:11

And when you're doing all this drawing, is it a mix of hand sketching, Revit, AutoCAD, like a little bit of everything?

Michael Attard: 07:11 - 08:17

What kind of drawing are you doing? For me, it's actually more modeling. I use SketchUp and Enscape. We do animation videos. I mean, again, I probably shouldn't be doing so much of this stuff, They still tend to have mine time to do it. I don't know. The other day I was right before the Christmas break and I was doing shadow studies and even the client said, I don't understand why you are doing shadow studies as a partner, but really, you know, everybody's on vacation. There's still that ability to, you know, dapple in all the various aspects of the work that we have to end up doing. Yeah, it's less for me. Unless in the technical drawing, there's a lot of still hand sketching. I mean, the easiest way to kind of start something is to start thinking about stuff with some sketches. But very quickly for me was adapting into 3D modeling as a tool. Particularly given the scale of these projects, it's hard for me to kind of break it down just with a couple of sketches. Um, so yeah, almost immediately into a 3d model and massing up forms and starting to think about how this thing comes together.

Ryan Schwartz: 08:17 - 08:20

How about you, Doran?

Doran Meinhard: 08:20 - 09:22

Any, you know, not as much sketching, but you know, by hand quite a bit, quite a bit of, uh, sketching on the finite parts of a project. Like, um, I'll be, I'm pretty passionate about the way the details of a project, especially certain skins and the things that you come into contact with on a building come together. So. I'll often draw, they're not like the prettiest sketches, but at that level, like the basic, the parties of a plan or the concept of an elevation, and then write down to really how to put the things together. I'm always thinking about how things come together, how things can be built, and then how things can be made beautiful in that regard. So just trying to communicate What I do, my sketching is really more to convey to a team of like intermediates and juniors, how to then take that and put it into the Rhino and the Grasshopper and the Revit models and to take it forward. It was just kind of, this is how you got to think about it. This is how it comes together. So I sort of diagram those things out for them.

Ryan Schwartz: 09:24- 09:33

Yeah, I can understand that. It's a quick way to just communicate, you know, maybe a semi-complex idea and just hand it off to someone else and say, here's the essence of it, you know, take it and run with it from there.

Doran Meinhard: 09:33- 09:54

We used to say that like, you know, if an idea, like any idea should be able to be kind of sketched out or put together on a single eight and a half by 11 sheet of paper. That's when my, in my first job in the UK, that was, that was the motto. So if you can, you can describe it on one piece of eight and a half by 11, then it's going to last.

Ryan Schwartz: 09:55- 10:12

and hand it off to someone else. Yep. So beyond drawing, I mean, there's a lot of other tasks. What else fills up the day? There's production work, admin stuff. You mentioned presentations too. Learning is ongoing and never ending. Coordination, like what other kind of stuff fills up the week?

Michael Attard: 10:13 - 10:15

Yeah, I mean, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00: 10:16 - 10:16

No, no, go ahead.

Michael Attard: 10:16 - 10:49

Go ahead. I mean, for me, the day shifts constantly between design review, consultant, client meetings, internal mentoring, um, going through approvals, meeting with city staff presentations, as I mentioned, um, the admin has grown, I think, as we've grown in our roles, you know, the aspects related to HR suddenly are taking a lot more time. And I, I may have preferred to have, but you know, the design direction remains the kind of central part of this stuff. Presentation certainly formed a big part of my job, explaining the idea, getting really these stakeholders to kind of buy in and keep the momentum going.

Doran Meinhard: 10:52- 12:10

Yeah, for me, I mean, there's this real rhythm that comes with depending on the project. And so when we're in the depths of like a really big competition or pursuit. The rest of the world and all the other things that I'm supposed to be doing, anything admin related or finance related, or even client relationships on the other projects really takes a dive down a little bit. And we're really super focused on that. deadline, sometimes it's a long-term deadline or that competition and that pursuit. And then we come out of that and there's a period where we get back to being able to, you know, be a little more human around us with all the people and, and being able to. communicate and embrace like all that, that that's able to, you know, get us to through those milestones. So I think it's a real kind of rhythm of that. Um, pretty interesting. Uh, and when a project doesn't have that, I find it gets a little boring. Like when it's, when it's just kind of plotting in the same steady, steady, it's, it's a little more boring. So I love the big portion. You got a whole team, you know, 14 up to 14 people, sometimes six people. behind something and everyone's there, um, late into the day, putting together ideas and putting together the presentation and then selling that forward. It's really great.

Ryan Schwartz: 12:11 - 12:17

So how many projects would you guys be potentially jumping, you know, back and forth between like, how many projects do you guys have on the go at one time?

Michael Attard: 12:19. - 12:34

I mean, right now for me, I've got about 10, 10 really active ones and 15 that are On the back there. Yeah. Not, not quite as busy, but that's a little high for me right now, but it's just the nature of it right now.

Doran Meinhard: 12:34 - 13:25

Quite a few. Yep. Yeah, some, I mean, I would say I tend to try to not get hands-on involved in the, in the design or the, or the sort of the delivery of more than three really major projects at once. When it comes to the smaller ones, it's just like three major projects and maybe six smaller ones, um, in different phases, including like sometimes the projects are studies, they're feasibility studies, whether programming exercises, whether The very beginnings of trying to find a language together with a client. So between those things, but once a project is in like the major milestones, like of a large arts and culture project or a large cultural project, institutional project, it takes a lot of focus on, on my regard and, um, sort of. three at a time is about as much as I can.

Ryan Schwartz: 13:26 - 13:57

Fair enough. Yep. And there's a lot going on with those big projects. Michael, you mentioned that like the admin side of things growing, you know, as your career has progressed and I'd like to kind of touch on that and the. the progression through a career from junior intermediate to a more senior level and what that looks like and what tasks you might have or how that might evolve as you move throughout your career. So can you touch a little bit on that and how things maybe started out versus how they look now in your day-to-day role?

Michael Attard: 13:59 - 15:30

You're making me go back a long ways, but I, I guess really, you know, from at a junior level, I guess beginning, it's like learning the tools it's learning, uh, you know, even just kind of basic drawing research. It's, it's trying to understand how these packages come together. It's about learning how you actually work with people. how buildings go together. I mean, for me, I had taken a year off between my fourth and fifth year to go to work for Ian McDonald Architect, who was a residential architect in the city. And I spent half that year actually working on the construction of his house, which for me was worth more than probably five years of school altogether. I mean, the ability to actually be there and seeing how these things come together was a huge leap forward for me. And really, I mean, coming out of a kind of a small office like that, let you be exposed to a number of things. I would say we certainly are trying to shepherd people through our office. We have people that are coming in as students at a junior level. I think once they move through into a kind of a more intermediate level, it's really about kind of owning portions of the project. It's beginning to kind of coordinate with consultants. uh, solving some more problems independently. And I think as you get more into the senior level, it's, it's helping to lead the design direction. That's more client facing, uh, you're managing teams, you're setting standards. And then of course, at the partner level, it's really coming down to things like design strategy, major decisions, client leadership. I don't know, Doron, do you have others? Anything to add Doron?

Doran Meinhard: 15:30 - 16:51

Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, you definitely start in the profession probably because you're passionate from God knows when about making and, and you really start as a maker. And, you know, I remember my, my first job in, in, in the UK very much making like directly at my desk. And then, and then my first job in Canada, I moved like after a couple of years of that on one project, I was lucky to work on one project. It was, um. Blue review kids rehab then went to site and became the, the, uh, the site assistant architect or architect for, for five years. Wow. Three years during construction, I guess, I guess three years of construction and two years before that in design. So learned a lot. And then again, it moves from that, I guess the whole trajectory of my career sort of moves from. A little less making every year to a little more managing. And then I think in the last, in the last six or seven years, the focus is, um, you know, about equal focus on active projects, but almost equal focus on pursuing new projects. So, you know, that energy to pursue a new project, kind of the hunt for new work, um, is a bit of a thrill and I definitely focus a lot of attention on that. And it probably occupies about, um, half. Or, you know, a third to half my time going forward.

Ryan Schwartz: 16:51 - 17:23

Yeah, that's important that you can never have too many projects in the pipeline or always always searching for more. So and and you guys mentioned a little bit just office size, you know, maybe coming from a smaller office or would you describe your current office as kind of a larger like midsize? Um, I'm just curious about that, uh, that relationship between, you know, a small office or a large office and how that really might shape, you know, an architect's day and what their, what their tasks are, what they're actually doing.

Doran Meinhard: 17:24 - 18:40

I think we're definitely, you know, on the, on the small side of large, but, but we're, we're beyond medium at this point. And we are a large office or, you know, at the, at the very upper bracket of medium large. And, um, But I think, you know, what we love or what we hope for is that everybody. Feels pretty engaged here in the office and that there's a really direct and easy connection between like, there isn't really a hierarchy. Like obviously there's different levels of experience and there's different positions. And so there is a hierarchy, but at the same time, we like to feel like it's a, it's a studio where every idea comes together on its own merit and really everyone can collaborate together in that sense. And, and I do feel like the, I do feel like I know we just, um, you know, we have a lot of, uh, interns, but also like students who are doing their co-op in university. And I was just having lunch with a couple of them, you know, uh, just up the street here. just at the cafe and they were saying how the culture really feels more like university. It feels like they're in school, feels like that studio vibe. So I think that's a distinction that we try to uphold that it should feel like you're still in university to some degree.

Michael Attard: 18:40 - 19:35

That's nice. Yeah. I don't even know if I've noticed a shift from when we had 20 people working in the office to when we had 150. I mean, obviously it's larger, but in many ways it's still run like the same small studio that we started with. I mean, certainly as we've gotten into some of the more complex, larger scale development projects, we've had to break apart some of the specialties. So we do tend to break apart some of the teams more into design and technical, whereas the work that Doran's looking at from a kind of cultural side, the whole team can take it right from beginning through to end. And so there's a little bit of differences that come in from the way that we approach the various projects. But Yeah, I mean, I do think in a smaller office, you're sort of forced into dealing with everything, you know, design, production, coordination, you know, sometimes it's contracted men. And we do try to allow for growth here and try and expose people as much as we can to all the various aspects of design construction.

Ryan Schwartz: 19:37 - 20:09

Yeah. And I guess as the, the office grows, you're getting bigger projects and then just the opportunity to, you know, work on more things and a variety of things kind of expands with that. So, um, but it is nice to, to keep that culture. And, um, that leads me to my next question, which is, um, you know, kind of speaking of, of students and, and interns, um, I was wondering if your office does things like, like critiques or pinups project reviews, that kind of stuff. And, and if so, maybe you can explain what that, what a critique is or what a crit is for. for those that are listening that don't know and haven't had the opportunity to participate.

Doran Meinhard: 20:11 - 21:11

Yeah, for sure. I mean, we, um, I think we do it in a, in a less formal way. I think, uh, so we have a bunch of spaces where, you know, on the sidewalls of our office, where we put up felt and then on the big tables in between are like all the models of projects and all the materials, a lot of materials, like, I don't know, Michael, you can show your camera around, but like, you can kind of see like, this is like some of these things, these things are just lying everywhere. And so. And then there's these little, little project tables at the end of each aisle. Uh, these round tables where, you know, people gather and look at it. So I think we do them in a, in a less formal way and we tend to do it at people's screens and at the long working table behind a row of desks, um, less so than the formal crits. I definitely have been at a place where, um, you know, long time ago where it is more of a formal, like every two weeks. you know, project would come in and you would do that. And there's a, and there's a ton of value to that. And I think just over the years we've developed it as a more informal approach.

Michael Attard: 21:12 - 21:28

Yeah. But, and at the same time, you know, we, we work collaboratively in teams and there's just opportunities to use one of these rooms. We pin up all the drawings, everybody can sit around, everybody has a voice and it's a chance to kind of, uh, look at the project and speak about the merits and some of the challenges that are coming forward with it.

Ryan Schwartz: 21:30 - 22:06

Yeah. And it's nice if you have that culture where people, you know, that are at a more junior stage don't, you know, they feel comfortable where they can chime in with an idea and they, you know, they're not sitting in the corner keeping to themselves and that's kind of a nice culture to have. So, um, that's great. I'm going to switch gears here a little bit. I know early on we talked about architects working with a huge number of people, a variety of people. So who are you working with? There's engineers, there's people at the city, there's clients. Who are you dealing with on a day-to-day basis? Who are you meeting with? Who are you chatting with?

Michael Attard: 22:09 - 22:53

Yeah. I mean, from, from, for me, it's mostly through the various developers that I'm working with. I kind of high level, the, the, the, the representatives of the clients from that end. It's a lot of city staff, especially as we go through approval. So, um, yeah, as projects progress through phases, then you're dealing with all the various consultants, structural, mechanical, electrical. traffic, civil. It's constant kind of coordination through that. Then you're factoring in the other design components like landscape design, which will be a lot of collaboration back and forth. This forms an important part of the project. Kind of blanking, I mean, it's an endless day of communicating with various people. So I don't know if you have

Doran Meinhard: 22:54 - 23:52

Yeah, I think for us, you know, from, uh, you know, the, the clients that we work for also have their own organizations and it's really interesting to see how that works. So, you know, from the directors of, of, you know, museums to the artistic directors of performing arts companies to then, you know, the technical directors of a particular theater, the exhibition, the director of exhibitions for a museum. the you know the immersive the immersive digital media specialist at another cultural facility. Now sometimes it'll be the person that delivers the visitor experience and you know so they're in charge of making sure everyone you know everyone feels warm and welcome when they come into their building and. You know, visitor services is a huge part of it too, you know, on, on healthcare projects, you know, the team can go from like, and, and again, like recently we've been involved in a couple of P3 projects, which, um, I've been heading up and they've been very different.

Ryan Schwartz: 23:52- 23:57

Like the, the day long, can you explain what P3 is just for those?

Doran Meinhard: 23:57 - 26:07

It's a public private partnership. So, um, There are some of the larger provincial infrastructure, uh, cultural and healthcare jobs. And, uh, so I'm one of them, you know, these, these all day design presentation meetings. Uh, there's a certain type of client group and it's done around a very big table. There might be 50 people in the room, but it's still quite hands on. And those people range from, you know, the clients list of their own experts in, in let's say, delivering the programming that they deliver to, you know, their own consultants for lighting. AV to food services and at the other extreme you know this other project the meetings take place in a huge auditorium. Three hundred people and the community that were presenting to happens to be a lot of the hospitals doctors nurses surgeons clinical staff and then the facility staff and so can really very so. It's a whole bunch of different people and and not our university projects it's quite interesting because we always used to like to say this we really. Add like at least two if not three clients on every university project there was always. The, uh, the particular faculty and program itself, like for instance, if it was, um, a school of business or a school of pharmacy or a school of medicine or something like that, if you had the faculty itself, and then you had the university, which is not the faculty, which has slightly different goals in most cases, um, they're, they, they coalesce together, but they're a little different. And so, you know, the provost and, and the deans and, um, and advancement and the foundations and all that. And then, then you have the third client, which is the physical plant and the facilities, you know, that they really want to make sure that the building is super robust. And so you're constantly cycling through your meetings and, or presentations to those three different groups. Right. And, and now on some of the bigger projects, of course, that's expanded to a lot of meetings as well with the contractors who are, who are working on the projects with us as well.

Ryan Schwartz: 26:09 - 26:50

I think that's a really good point just about the client and how it's not necessarily one person, like a big organization as a client, like you could have dozens and dozens of people that are, you know, having their input, uh, brought into the project and their feedback. So, and you've touched on this a little bit. What, what does that design process look like? Like working with all these people? Um, cause I think sometimes there is this public misconception that, you know, uh, Uh, there's this architect that goes off into a dark room and they're a genius and they come back with this, you know, perfect drawing, but there's a lot of, you know, collaboration and communication behind the scenes. So can you talk a little bit about that design process and what architects really bring to the table in these, uh, these projects?

SPEAKER_00: 26:52- 26:53

Um, yeah, I think, oh, go ahead, Michael. Yeah.

Michael Attard: 26:54 - 27:47

Well, I was trying to think about it kind of loosely. I mean, obviously as the architect, we're looking to kind of synthesize everything, um, you know, design, performance, regulation, structure, systems costs. It's trying to bring all this stuff together into one coherent vision. And then we're working with engineers who are clearly kind of focused on systems. And you think about contractors who are dealing with constructability and cost. Um, you know, it's, it's, it's kind of working with these, I mean, for me often with planners as well that are based on kind of policy and city frameworks. Uh, you've got interior designers that are really kind of thinking about these buildings and how they're sort of perceived from, um, the user experience. And it's kind of taking all these things and bringing them together and to kind of one cohesive idea that, that ultimately we are sort of responsible. That kind of falls under the one large umbrella that's part of the architect.

Doran Meinhard: 27:49. - 30:54

I think, you know, for us, we, we start, um, I mean, sometimes it is a little messy at the start, which is kind of fun. Right. And so, um, and it depends on the client dynamic and sometimes we'll start very small. We'll try to understand. Who the executive steering you know it's usually one or two or sometimes three people three key champions of a project and what will make sure that we start with a bit of alignment but but very soon. We and they want to open it up to their wider group. They want to engage and we want to engage with them. And so we set up these kind of focus groups or user groups and on the different projects. And sometimes this can get quite large depending on the complexity of a project. And, and then, you know, we get everyone together and we never do it kind of. Without anything down we were always bringing them sketches or views or little models often very conceptual mothers sometimes words sometimes we release we are we usually actually start with words in our end of it and so. You know trying to form a bit of a common vocabulary because. You know at least everyone can speak that language at first and and people start to gravitate towards certain words and those words turn into the foundation of those sketches and then we can bring them back. And then the language together gets developed and so we start to refer to know the key spaces in a building like. Like the hive or the heart or, or, or, you know, the machine of the theater, we start to refer to them in the same sort of language eventually. And we're bringing, and the groups then get a little, little larger and wider, and then they splinter off. as they're starting to address the more technical nature of what we need to do for them. And then we splintered those off in the same way, but the really that Eureka moment, like another example, like a princess Margaret hospital, we had quite a lot of, um, I think we had like 17 different. Clinics that we were designing for all kind of on the ground, second and third floor. And so we had these 17 groups as well as, you know, visitor services and facilities and all these other user groups. And so, um, Really when we knew that we had finished schematic design or, or gotten heavy or halfway through design development was this one meeting. I remember, um, where we had to, we had to do a summary of all the program and all the user findings and everyone's desires and put that all together. And our success in that was that. The, the user groups themselves, the people, um, all felt so comfortable with the design at that point that they took over the presentation. And so we got up, we gave an introduction and then each department got in and presented what they had come up with together with us for, for the layout and the touch, look and feel and the nuance of their clinic. And that was really successful.

Ryan Schwartz: 30:56 - 31:26

That's awesome. Yeah. Then you, you know, you've, you've hammered at home and you've really communicated what, what is happening when, when they can explain it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's awesome. Um, a lot of this that we've talked about so far, you know, it's taking place online or in offices. Um, Doron, you did mention, you know, going to site quite a while or for quite a bit earlier in your career. And I think that's also an important point that sometimes gets overlooked. So how often do you guys get to site these days? Um, and, and what are you looking at? Who are you meeting with there?

Michael Attard: 31:28 - 32:26

For me, it'll, for me, it'll depend on, you know, if stuff's actually getting built, uh, again, in the kind of development sector for the last while things are starting to slow down. So we're getting kind of less and less of that. I mean, I, I personally end up on site less than ours, you know, our site staff. So there's guys that are on site constantly making sure that the work is actually. being built as envisioned. But I take a kind of, whenever I'm asked to come in, so sometimes it's, it could be every six months when a project's under construction. I will say that with job sites like, or websites like Urban Toronto, that are capturing all of these projects that I am looking at things constantly. I don't know how they have people out there taking photos constantly, but I'm surprised sometimes we get better photos from Urban Toronto than our own guys are coming back with. So it's been convenient for me to just be able to sit at my desk and see all these projects that are in construction with photos.

Doran Meinhard: 32:28- 34:33

I would say between my mix of projects, I mean, there's, there's always usually, uh, two larger ones that are under construction. So between those two, I'll get out to site like every six weeks, still like once every six weeks, for sure. For like at least half a day or something. Um, sometimes more often, sometimes more intensively sometimes, uh, um, You know, there, there were periods when we were wrapping up the, uh, the Baha'i temple in Santiago where, you know, I mean, and we had, uh, Justin from our office was down there almost full time for a while, but I was still down there for a week at a time, sometimes at certain stages of it. And. A lot of that is just about, you know, to create the translation of some of these buildings into reality. Everyone has to have a really clear mental picture of what they're trying to achieve. And it's not like It's not a super technical job on site. I think it is a people management thing. It's just, it happens. It starts to happen on site sometimes when the dynamic of a project moves to that level. Um, of course, you know, it could happen elsewhere sometimes, but sometimes it does work like that. And, um, other projects require a little less site attention, you know, where it might be. And definitely I think zoom and teams has created a dent in it. I think we have a lot of clients that really, um, still want all the site meetings to be in person and they are, but sometimes there's a digital link, man. And there's a plus and a minus side because you get, you get a lot more people To join it when it's virtual, um, obviously it's hard to get to some sites that are an hour or two hours away. Um, but you need some of the key people to still be doing that. So I think you have to balance it. It's like, it's like, you know, technology's changed our profession, but at the same time, we have to remember that it's still, uh, it, you know, we still depend on gravity to, uh, we're defying gravity to make something beautiful.

Michael Attard: 34:35 - 35:32

A lot of the projects, Doran, that you're involved with though are incredibly bespoke. I mean, you know, technically what we're building are a set of instructions. We're not building a building. We're building instructions that people are going to use to build the building. and the Baha'i temple that Doron was just speaking to. I mean, there's nothing else like that anywhere in the world. And so, you really do require the design team to be on hand, available to answer all kinds of questions that are coming up constantly for projects like that. I mean, a lot of the work that I'm working in, although it's it is still very particular for its site and we try to drive a lot of design into the work that we're doing. It is following a more kind of standard construction model when it comes to development work and so there's less need as the designer to be on site every single day. It's really more about kind of making sure that people are fulfilling the or executing on the design drawings.

Doran Meinhard: 35:33 - 38:06

And more often for us also onsite isn't actually on the site. It's where in the shops, where the, uh, the, the, the things are being fabricated and put together or, or unitize them or really being made. Right. And so in a lot of cases, I mean, it's very rare. I don't think, you know, there's very few projects these days anymore where we can offer a lot of. a ton of relevance into the craft of things being put together on the site themselves. So we do have to go to the shops where those things were that first level of fabrication and then the second level of fabrication which is usually some kind of unitization and penalization be able to bring it to the site that's where we have to. really work hands-on with them to have them understand what we're looking for for them to understand, for us to understand what the limitations are. I think we learn more from them than they do from us usually, or equal ways around, and to kind of come up with these solutions. We're trying to do things to materials that They, they want to do on the one hand, but, uh, but not easily. And so that's where craft it's kind of alchemy, you know, you're, you're doing something more than, than the thing naturally wants to do. And that requires that instruction. And then, you know, you, you. So you spend a lot more time in the shops actually. And then, and we have people that also, you know, spend even more time in the shops. And then from there coming to site, by the point it's come to the site, it, you know, you've, you've mostly lost your, your ability to interact with it. I mean, the bulk majority of. The tempos, you know, came in a lot of parts was made in different places, right. It was not a hammered together or, or car or, you know, not a lot of the actual making was done in Santiago other than, but all of the assembly was done there. And that in itself required a whole other level of effort. But everything's like that. So we go to precast shops. Um, we go to terracotta fabricators, we go to our glazing fabricators, we go to mill workshops, we go to the metal shops. Cause sometimes metal work is a little, you know, it's still quite, you know, we do do a bit of stuff with forging and with, um, with creating textures out of heat and patina on different surfaces. And so all of that requires like, they want to know from us, do you like it like this? Or do you want it like 3% more like this or 2% more like that?

None: 38:08 - 38:09

Ha, ha, ha.

Ryan Schwartz: 38:10 - 38:34

Yeah, I imagine it's a lot like you mentioned those 17 client groups at the hospital and trying to get everyone on the same page. And I imagine it's the same sort of situation. You know, you're going to all these fabricators and you're just trying to really communicate an idea and get everyone on the same page. Right. There's a lot of coordination just to make sure that when all these, you know, bits and pieces show up from all around the world, that they actually fit together, you know, in the way that you're intending.

Doran Meinhard: 38:35 - 39:09

So, um, and I will say that are like that last step. However it is, we really rely a huge amount, like 90% or, I mean, we rely very heavily on the construction industry to, to really elevate these projects, right? Like the, the wrong fabricator, the wrong sub-trade, the wrong contractor makes, makes things very difficult. You cannot achieve what you're doing without them. They're, they have a huge stake in the process of me.

Ryan Schwartz: 39:10 - 39:22
Takes a team. Do you guys ever get to go back to these projects once they're complete and actually enjoy them a little bit? Or is that just during construction and then unfortunately you're too busy and you don't get to go back?

Michael Attard: 39:23 - 39:59

             
A lot of the work that I'm working on is in private development. So once the building is taken over, it's really not an ability to go back in and look at the stuff. At the same time, you're shaping cities and master plans. Certainly our work at the well, it's an opportunity to go through and be able to experience that as a full development. And any of the master plans that we're looking at, there's that opportunity for it to engage in the city. I mean, I can't help but look out a window and see many projects just, you know, been involved in so many kinds of towers that have landed through the city. So you're always going by them and seeing how they engage with the city, but less opportunity to actually go in and experience the building for me.    

Doran Meinhard: 40:00 - 41:26

I mean, I love both on the outside and the inside, like the, the kind of the nature of time and the patina of time. Like I really like to go visit it. You know, it's not like set times, but like three years, five years, 10 years, up to 20 years. And it's amazing how the projects, you know, can really age very beautifully, can get better sometimes, um, if a client's really taking care of the project and the way the land and the greenery, uh, sometimes immerses a project is really amazing. Yeah, this one house we did on Lake Huron, I guess we finished it in 2011, so what's that? 15 years ago, right? And it definitely gets better. I do get called up for some maintenance things on an annual basis just to check in on things, make sure things are going well, and it does get better. And certainly seeing the purpose of a building that we do, like the cultural ones, at the Tom Patterson Theater in Stratford, I go to at least three plays every year and feel that. I do walk through Princess Margaret a lot. I did go recently to one of my oldest projects, which was Bloorview Kids Rehab. Going back to that 22 years later or 21 years later, it was pretty remarkable. Bring back some memories. Yeah. Yeah, it was pretty amazing. It's a lot of fun actually.

Ryan Schwartz: 41:27 - 41:46

I mean, that's maybe the best part of the job. Well, that's, that's a perfect lead into the next question. Cause I was just wondering, you know, as an architect, what, you know, what do you enjoy about it? Like what keeps it exciting and maybe that's part of it. Um, but you know, what, what aspects of the job or the profession kind of keep you motivated and keep you, uh, driven?

Michael Attard: 41:50- 42:42

Yeah, I guess for me, it is the opportunity to really shape cities, to create buildings that contribute to something meaningful. Um, there's always these new puzzles that you're trying to figure out. It is the, for me, it's always been about building these teams and working collaboratively. I mean, it's, it's never the same thing. You're always in different teams as well. It's forming relationships that actually have lasted for, you know, more than more than a decade with various people. Um, and so. Yeah, I've never, I don't even, I'm not even somebody that even looks at the clock. In fact, for me to look at a clock is to make sure that I'm not still here and it being nine o'clock at night. I mean, usually sometimes it has to be a reminder that you have to kind of leave and go home. I really have from almost like stepping in with, with luck into this profession have, have enjoyed every moment of it. It's been incredibly fulfilling for me.

Doran Meinhard: 42:45 - 44:56

Yeah, no, I think, you know, I think I look back and I think I had, people were giving me as, as presents to a certain birthday, I can't remember which it was, books on architecture. So I guess it was a passion early on and it must've been because of, you know, an emotion that certain buildings or structures, certain ones in particular, I can't remember which ones maybe made me feel and to be able to, um, to To be a part of that, I think in a, in a kind of a choose your own adventure daily routine where our office is like a super fun, very hands-on little bit messy studio where we can have a lot of fun. Um, you know, it's not, it's not a corporate. It's not a corporate environment and so we have that in the office and then you know then there's the dynamic of traveling to other places cuz most of my projects aren't in toronto and so we're going to travel to meet with our clients whether that's you know another parts of ontario or another parts of the country or even internationally and so we see that dynamic play a lot and then to finally getting to see how other people. how other people's emotions are shaped and and grow and smiles come to people's faces by something that we did you know, going into one of the healthcare facilities recently that i worked on and i was kinda walking by trying to peek in one of the rooms and there was a kid in there with a therapist and, I thought i should just keep walking but the therapist called me in and call me in and the kid was sitting there and and so i was introducing my he introduced himself. Ask me who i was and i said that you know i designed i worked on the design of this project. And he said that his dream was to be an architect. And, uh, so we started talking about what that was and, and really having a lot of the conversation in a different way. He, he was, um, he was 14, uh, or he's 14. And so having that conversation in a different way, um, uh, really lights you up, I think.

Ryan Schwartz: 44:57 - 45:07

Those are pretty great, inspiring answers. And out of curiosities, any advice for young architects, for students out there? What did you tell this 14-year-old?

Doran Meinhard: 45:10- 46:28

I think keep doing whatever brings passion to you. Sometimes we get asked, we like to help students at that age or a little older, sometimes like 18, starting to prepare for their portfolios. And I think some kids have the conception that what they're drawing or what their things should be architecturally related and sort of like to tell them very much the opposite. Like, uh, just, you know, draw whatever brings you passion. And even if it's a little detail of something that you tape over to see the difference in texture of light movement or the depth of field or something. So it's not, it's not that you have to obsess about buildings. Like it's, it's, it's really the opposite. Like, like if. If it's, if it's the ripples of light on something that, that fascinate you try to describe that. And cause really we look for our inspiration on new projects. Comes from people, comes from the natural world, comes from art, comes from metaphor. We really try not to look. at any buildings because looking at a building as a way to start a sentence at a past building as a new sentence in a project is not a great recipe i think and so really looking to everything but architecture as a founding point would be where i would start.

Ryan Schwartz: 46:30 - 46:34

Good advice. Michael, any, any thoughts for young architects, for people interested in the profession?

Michael Attard: 46:34 - 47:10

I mean, I couldn't say it any better. I mean, I would say, you know, just continue to be curious, learn about these things. I mean, I would always said, I'm just kind of thinking back, but to not really even underestimate the importance of thinking about things iteratively. You don't have to just land on something perfectly right away. There's lots of opportunity to kind of explore different ideas. You can test these things and then ultimately come up with what you think is the best solution among many. There was always, I can think of one person that just, whatever they first came up with, that was it. And he was moving forward with it. We never wanted to kind of test beyond that. I don't think that's actually the best way forward.

Doran Meinhard: 47:10- 47:43

Oh, sorry. Go ahead. No, no. I think, I think it's like what you're describing, Michael, is, I mean, I think when we talk about refinement, we don't mean like refined, like a refined elegance. We kind of mean the refinement of, of an idea like that, like that you, you know, that iteration it's 16 iterations later, it becomes better and better and more robust and, and starts to resonate more with the, with, with whoever our audience or our client group is at that point.

Ryan Schwartz: 47:44 - 47:58

I think that's great advice. We're starting to run low on time here. So just any closing thoughts for people listening that you'd like to convey about the profession or, you know, addressing any misconceptions or anything like that? Any kind of final comments?

Doran Meinhard: 48:01 - 49:27
I think for me, I mean, coming into architecture, like, I can't remember if it was while I was in school or graduating, but there was a huge recession and everyone said, you know, you're never going to make a living at it. And, um, and obviously it is, it's not an easy living, right. It's, uh, it, it is, uh, whatever you call it, it's a work of passion. Like you have to really be passionate about it because it's certainly not the easiest way or the shortest amount of hours to make money. Um, there is that passion that has to play into it, but at the same time, I think that it's one of those people will always need. It's one of the most fundamental things. People will always need places to come together and people will always need different forms and different types of shelter and people will always need places to, you know, really aspire to. And so I think it's very solid. It's a very solid profession and people shouldn't worry about the kind of the The economy of the time, you know, might be, you might struggle for a couple of years, but I think that there's a lot of robustness to what we do. Um, and, and, and maybe, maybe in this new generation, maybe we'll, we'll be able to, uh, cut down some of our hours, uh, AI will help us. So maybe, maybe we'll be able to do things faster than we used to.

Michael Attard: 49:28- 49:56

I mean, we almost already, we already are in many ways. I mean, it's, I think one of the challenging things is the, it's, it's almost this kind of perceived speed that you can produce things out right now. And AI, I mean, I'm, I'm now in using AI whenever we can, uh, less so as a design tool. I'm not kind of really using AI to come up with a design to me. That's like, I've heard people say, well, you know, why can't we get AI to do our laundry? Why are they taking away all the fun things?

Michael Attard: 49:57 - 50:49

I don't want to give that part away but it's amazing to be able to have some early sketches and then be able to see without having to put on all the labor of adding lights and textures and stuff like that to be able to kind of hit a button and say I'm really you're kind of prompting it as well you're just saying I would like this to have these kind of pieces and then it's cutting down tons and tons of hour. I am curious to see where things are going to go I mean ultimately the building is going to be the building that's constructed, but the method from going from concept to producing those tools, those sets of instructions, I think is built probably going to change over the next few years. It already has. And I don't entirely have the clear window of what it's going to look like, but I'm sure things will change. It's already changed in our lifetime too. I mean, when I started, it was just people doing watercolors. I mean, I don't see as many of those guys working anymore.

Ryan Schwartz: 50:50 - 51:12

Yeah. When you think of the time it would take to do that versus, yeah, he just hit a button and it spits it out five seconds later. Yeah. It's pretty incredible. Yeah. The amount of work that we can get done with, with that help. So, um, that's great. Um, if people want to, you know, learn more or get in touch, I guess, um, the, the firm or the office website's probably a good place to go. Any other, um, is that a good place to steer people?

Michael Attard: 51:12 - 51:31

Yeah, very often we do the doors open. There's opportunities to come visit our studio when that happens. It's a, it's actually a pretty fun place. We're in the old Wrigley chewing gum factory. That's where our office over on the East end. And we love actually having people come through. We get to see all the models and see how we actually operate. But yeah, sure. Start with the website. Don't just show up at our door.

Ryan Schwartz: 51:33 - 52:28

Yeah, noted. That's great. Well, I really appreciate the time that both of you took today and for really pulling back that curtain and helping people understand, you know, what the profession is like and what people, you know, what architects actually do on a day-to-day basis. So that'll bring us to a close today. So thanks to Michael and Doron. And thanks to all you folks out there listening. If you're enjoying Architecturally Speaking, please leave us a quick review, share it with your friends. That'll help us spread the word. And Architecturally Speaking is available wherever you get your podcasts and also on the OAA's YouTube channel. So be sure to check that out for the full video version of today's conversation. And of course, if you're interested in learning more about architecture, you can check out the Ontario Association of Architects website. There's lots of information there for architects and also just the general public. So you can visit oaa.on.ca. Until next time, I'm Ryan Schwartz, and this has been Architecturally Speaking. Bye for now.