Building Better Together: A Conversation with Mitchell Hall

In this episode of Architecturally Speaking, host Ryan Schwartz sits down with Mitchell Hall of KPMB to explore how the bond between architect and client defines a project's success. 

Using his career journey as a backdrop, Mitchell explains that great buildings, like Bridgepoint Health and the National Ballet School, are born from a shared vision and mutual trust rather than just budgets and schedules.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in how collaboration can help turn a design into a meaningful space that inspires its community.

Subscribe now to Architecturally Speaking on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcript

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Building Better Together: A Conversation with Mitchell Hall

Ryan Schwartz: 00:04 - 01:10

Hi, and welcome back to another episode of Architecturally Speaking. I'm your host, Ryan Schwartz, and as always, this podcast is presented by the Ontario Association of Architects. Our goal with the show is to pull back the curtain on the world of architecture by chatting with architects and other industry experts to give you a little peek behind the scenes. And we'll do that again today because we have a great guest. His name is Mitchell Hall and he's an architect and a partner with KPMB. He's worked on a wide range of complicated projects across the country, including several that have won some governor general awards. And if you don't know, that's kind of a big deal. It's basically the most prestigious architecture award in Canada. So Mitch, welcome to the show. Thanks Ryan. Great to be here. And I have a pretty good sense that this will be a fun conversation. We met briefly just a week or two ago and you have a wealth of experience to share with the audience. And I think that experience will be maybe particularly relevant, um, for the folks listening. Cause we're talking about clients and how architects work with clients and collaborate with clients. Um, but before we get into that, I'm curious how you got into architecture and sort of what led you to where you are today.

Mitchell Hall: 01:12 - 02:54

So great question, Ryan. Um, I actually wanted to be a surgeon. Um, most of my teenage and early adult life was, was geared towards medicine. I wanted, I thought I would, I pretty good hand, uh, hand, eye coordination and fine motor skills. And I, I wanted to be a surgeon and, and it's a longer story as to why I didn't become one, but I had a neighbor who was an architect that invited me to work in his office. Um, and despite that, I wanted to be an architect anyway. I mean, it was, uh, I like to make things. Um, and, uh, I, I believe that, um, in a, in a kind of different way, architects make a significant contribution, um, to, to wellbeing and, and frankly, to society and culture. And, and it was something that fascinated me. And I read Frankenstein, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, which Everybody seems to be making a movie about these days. And it fascinated me because, I don't know if you know the story, but Frankenstein was trying to create the perfect human being. He was trying to rid humanity of disease. And of course, you know, he ran into problems because in taking, you know, pieces from perfect bodies and reassembling them, he created a monster. And in a lot of ways, architecture is kind of like that, right? I mean, we take pieces and ideas from other architects and other buildings, and we reassemble them into a new whole. And there's a whole sort of social responsibility that comes along, uh, with what that means. And we, we know what happened to Frankenstein, right? And I think his biggest mistake, this is probably longer than you wanted to know, Ryan, but, uh, it, it, you know, he, he didn't socialize his monster, right? And that was the mistake he made. But anyway, for me, there was a connection there to what the, the power of architecture could be. And so that's how I connected the dots and the rest is history.

Ryan Schwartz: 02:55 - 03:01

That's great. And since then, you've done some work on some healthcare projects too, right? So you're sort of intertwined the two a little bit.

Mitchell Hall: 03:02 - 03:43

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's a perfect example of that is Bridgepoint Health, right? I mean, it's a project I'm really proud of. It's on the Don Valley. It's a chronic care rehab hospital. Lots of players involved, but I'm very proud of the contribution I made. And it was all about creating an architecture that can help you heal. And I think what was interesting about that project is through a post-occupancy evaluation, it demonstrated that patients got better 25% faster because of the design, because of the architecture. So that's something to be really proud of. I mean, you mentioned all the awards, but that's the most powerful award you could ever get, right? That your buildings actually made a difference in people's lives.

Ryan Schwartz: 03:44 - 03:47

Yeah. You're actually, you know, physically helping people, which is, you know.

Mitchell Hall: 03:47 - 03:49

Absolutely. Yeah. They're healing faster.

Ryan Schwartz: 03:49 - 04:02

Yeah. Yeah. Um, so since, you know, going way back and since starting in architecture, you've obviously had a lot of projects, a lot of clients. What would you say is the role of a client, um, in an architecture project?

Mitchell Hall: 04:03 - 05:10

Broad question, but, um, yeah, so, so beyond the obvious, I mean, without a client, you don't have a, you don't have a job, right. But, um, you know, they, they need to provide the basics, which is, you know, like a budget, a schedule, a functional program, um, and a site that's all sort of handy to have. But I would say more importantly, um, what differentiates architecture from near building is. A client that has a vision, right? That they have an idea. I mean, back to Bridgepoint for a second. Marian Walsh had this incredible vision for how to create this village of care. And she actually challenged us to create an architecture that would inspire wellness. So talk about an abstract idea about what her vision was, but then we had to translate that into a building. But to me, that is the most important quality that a client has to have, a vision, and they need to provide really strong leadership. Because in the absence of that, you don't get clear decision-making and the project, the result isn't great. You don't get a great result out of the project.

Ryan Schwartz: 05:11 - 05:19

And talking, that's a big ask, right? If a client comes to you and says, Oh, we want a building that inspires wellness. How do you go about, how do you even start? How does that conversation go?

Mitchell Hall: 05:20 - 06:36

It, it, uh, it was fascinating. So Marion is a really interesting and sort of strong personality through, I mean, basically the answer is Ryan is that you have to be curious, right? You have to ask questions. You need to learn exactly what it is that your client does. And I mean, that's, what's really fun about being an architect is that You're always learning right so in this case we knew that biophilic design was a big player in basically people feeling good. You know that there's a thing called fight on the sides that are produced by trees and that's why walking in the woods you feel good because it actually stimulates your immune system so creating a design that capitalized on the landscape of the don valley. um and you know the broad view in the park um so big windows windows that went from florida ceiling literally that you could look out and see the sky and the earth and engage with that and the other thing was. Community is hugely important in your hospitals um are kind of terrifying for little kids and for families people don't want to go to hospitals because they don't want to get sick. And so if you can create an environment that actually is welcoming and an extension of the community, then people want to go and visit their family. And that, of course, that's also part of the healing process. So those were kind of key factors in how we inspired wellness. Okay.

Ryan Schwartz: 06:37 - 06:49

And you mentioned, um, you know, being a good leader, sort of having a strong vision, what other qualities, anything else come to mind for what, what makes a good client, a good site and a big budget help, but anything else?

Mitchell Hall: 06:49 - 07:13

Yeah. Well, in budgets are getting trickier and trickier. I think clear decision-making is, is an important one. I mean, a lot of the projects, especially in healthcare that I'm working on, there is a multitude of players, project managers, because there's various departments, it's fairly large, complicated, you know, institution. And so having clear leadership and decision making is critical. Otherwise, you can't get any traction.

Ryan Schwartz: 07:14 - 07:36

I think that's a really good point. I think there's a lot of clients out there that don't realize the number, the sheer number of decisions that have to be made. Um, and it gets exponentially harder when you have a board of clients, right? It's not just a single solitary person. Um, any, any experience between, you know, a single client versus, you know, uh, sort of decision by, by committee.

Mitchell Hall: 07:38 - 08:15

all the time. Again, it comes down to the size of the institution and their governance structure. Hospitals are notorious for that. And then you've got all the government bodies associated with that decision-making. Essentially, the funding agency, the Ministry of Health, Infrastructure Ontario adds another layer of complexity to the whole process in terms of how they're procured. They're pretty complicated beasts, hospitals. I mean, I've only gotten into those fairly recently too, Ryan. I mean, I've had the privilege of working on, as you mentioned off the top, all kinds of different projects. I've had a really kind of fun career that way.

Ryan Schwartz: 08:17 - 08:37

And, um, we sort of touched on this maybe with, with, uh, the committee and decide, sorry, decision by, by committee, but what makes for a more difficult client or a more challenging client? Like, um, just a lack of those qualities or is there anything else that maybe you don't have to, uh, name anyone in particular, but any, anyone or any, uh, thoughts on that?

Mitchell Hall: 08:38 - 09:24

Well, it's, it's, it's, you, you've already really answered the question. It's lack of the above quite frankly, but, and you know, I think, um, I think we're, you know, especially people that have strong opinions and are strong minded. And I think a lot of architects are. Um, you know, when you, you, it's, it's not unusual for you to butt heads, uh, with certain individuals within the client group or the client, you know, the, the, the lead client themselves. But like anything in life, you have to kind of work through that. You have to have a level of mutual respect and you need to understand what the issues are. and have a clear discourse. You need to get to know each other and understand where they're coming from and hopefully come to some kind of compromise or conclusion that satisfies the aspirations for the project and the project itself.

Ryan Schwartz: 09:25 - 09:50

Yeah. And in terms of understanding the client, you mentioned, you know, learning and lifelong learning. And I think that's a really good point too is, um, and a lot of these situations as the architect, you're stepping in and you may not really know the industry that well in terms of, um, you know, the, the nuances of a hospital or something else. So as an architect, what do you need to learn sort of from your client or about the client? Like how, how did those early conversations start?

Mitchell Hall: 09:51 - 12:31

So, I mean, that's a great question. I mean, so, um, I think I said this earlier, but architects are, are, they're great students, right? First of all, you have to be a really good listener. Um, but I think it's, it's really important that you're curious about your client and it's not just, you know, the same old, same old, we've done one of these before. We're just going to do another one and it's on a different site. You have to be really curious and you have to ask questions. Often it's referred to as critical thinking or design thinking. The language that we use here at KPMB, certainly I do, is referred to as design excellence. And so a lot of people go, okay, what does that mean, right? And for me, what that means is that you have to challenge existing paradigms the way things are. uh, and look for ways to make them better, right? And look, you know, move the dial, uh, make the world a better place, however you want to articulate that. And that has to be part of your DNA when you go into these things. And as a consequence, you need to kind of, uh, learn all about them, what it is that they do, how they do it, so that the end result is not just a building, but it's an architecture that, that, uh, that inspires them, right? That, that they feel good about going to every day and it actually makes their lives better and makes what they do better. And so in order to do that, you have to thoroughly understand what it is that they do. And, you know, and, and one of my kind of, uh, best examples of that is I did a winery. Um, I had no idea how wine was made. I could kind of guess. Uh, and it's been right around the lake and our client took us out to Napa and I, I went to school. I learned out cause this was a production facility. It wasn't just a marketing, uh, outlet for the wine. It was Jackson tricks and you needed to figure out how to make wine. And so we went to Napa. We visited a whole bunch of different wineries. And what I learned was in order to make premium wine, which is what they were trying to do. You needed to use gravity as much as possible because the more you pump and manipulate wine, you break down what's called the tannins or the chemical chains into choppy little bits. So if you think about silky tannins versus a harsh wine, that's why, right? So, um, I learned that, you know, in the process, and that was part of, of how you make a premium wine. And then I worked closely with the winemaker to figure out how we arrange the equipment to move the equipment to the wine, as opposed to the wine to the equipment, if that makes sense. Again, manipulating it as little as possible. And the challenge, uh, for, for that was you use gravity, gravity flow. How do you do that on a flat site? So in architecture it's called section, right? So you, you manipulate the section to try to bring the, the, you know, the must or the grape, the raw grape juice to the top and you move it down by gravity to the barrel cellar where it ends and finishes. So in order to do a winery, I needed to learn that, right? I should say in order to do a great winery, I needed to.

Ryan Schwartz: 12:32 - 12:42

So what does that process look like? Are you having meetings in a boardroom? Are you actually sort of on site touring their facility and having a look at their existing processes?

Mitchell Hall: 12:42 - 13:40

Well, that's exactly what we did in Napa. And then, of course, we visited their facilities here. Again, it comes back to being a good student and a good listener and being curious about what it is that they do. And then it's an iterative process. I mean, all the architects out there will know that, right? You begin with very simple kind of concepts and you work your way through, you know, the complexity of the systems and the integration of the systems, and you find ways to communicate that to your client. And I think a lot of clients have a really hard time understanding what architects do. And so the presentation tools, the way that you describe things, I mean, obviously with modern technology, there's all kinds of VR stuff and animations you can do. Old school, you built models, you built physical models that, you know, that people could actually stick their head into and they can understand what it is that you're doing. But that communication is critical in order to kind of move things forward and get them, you know, to approve what it is that you're going to do.

Ryan Schwartz: 13:41 - 14:05

Yeah. And that's another good point. I guess, you know, as a, as an architect, you're a, you're a student, but you're also a bit of an educator for the client too. Right. In terms of, you know, the processor, you know, there are some sophisticated clients out there that have done, you know, multiple projects before, but there's a lot that have never gone through this process before. So how do you start to guide them and tell them, you know, your process and how you fit into this? How does that conversation go?

Mitchell Hall: 14:06 - 15:34

It, it's, uh, it, it takes time. It takes time, but yeah, no, absolutely. Right. I mean, that, that's the biggest challenges that is, I think a lot of people have this mistaken belief that what we do is easy and that everybody thinks they're on our, everybody thinks they're an architect. Right. You know, so everybody has an aesthetic opinion, but I don't think they really completely appreciate how complicated what we do is, right? I mean, beginning at the beginning and with a concept and an idea and then translating that into drawings and documents and then putting that on the street, getting, you know, first of all, meeting the budget is the key thing these days. But, you know, communicating to the construction world and then building it. And I can tell you right now we're building something for CAMH and it's a challenge. We've created this really beautiful but incredibly complicated building. And so you kind of reap what you sow at the end of the day, right? Because you have to figure out, like, I would say a design never actually stops. and that might terrify some clients, but the reality is that as you build something, you're still making design decisions because nothing is ever perfect. Unfortunately, we're not capable of producing a perfect set of drawings. It's just not possible. There isn't time or the resources. So there's always challenges. Um, but you know, and, and, and frankly, if you see something that you've done, um, that doesn't, that isn't right or doesn't look right, then you have to fix it. Right. You have to fix it.

Ryan Schwartz: 15:34 - 15:49

Um, and yeah, I think that's another good point too, is like, you can always make it a little bit better, but there's, there's no real finish line, right? You're never, you're never quite there. You're aspiring to something that you'll never quite achieve. And that might be unsatisfying for, for the client, but.

Mitchell Hall: 15:50 - 16:05

Well, and, and, you know, this is, this is perhaps one of my flaws, one of my many flaws, but I often can only remember the things I didn't do right, as opposed to the things I did do right. And you walk around and you look at it and you go, I wish I had done that differently. I wish that was better.

Ryan Schwartz: 16:05 - 16:08

It's 99%, but yeah, that lasts a little bit. Yeah.

Mitchell Hall: 16:09 - 16:09

Yeah, exactly.

Ryan Schwartz: 16:11 - 16:37

So when a client comes to you, you know, with a new brief for something like a winery, you know, maybe as a good example, then, um, and they, they haven't done this before and they either, they know exactly what they want or they think they know, or they have no idea and it's completely open to you. Is there, I guess there's probably pros and cons to both, but any preference, like a very sort of detailed brief versus an open ended, you know, learn as we go kind of situation.

Mitchell Hall: 16:38 - 18:00

I mean, there, there are pros and cons of each of each version. Obviously, the more information you get, um, the clearer the problem is. Um, but perhaps the less freedom you have, liberty you have, um, in terms of how you can, you know, what results you come to. Um, there's an interesting group of, um, cancer care uh, clinics in the world called Maggie setter. They initiated in Scotland. Um, and there's a whole bunch of them around, um, the UK and the brief is qualitative. So it doesn't, you know, it just, it tells you the kind of environment you need to create. So these aren't actual medical facilities. They're basically places where people who have had chemo or radiation therapy go kind of for respite, right, to just sort of recover from the process itself. And they're all beautiful, and I encourage people to go out and look at them. They're all designed by, you know, capital-A architects. Maggie was Charles Jencks' wife. She had cancer, and if you know him, he taught at the AA, and so he had all of his students, you know, Heather Wick and, you know, pick someone. Frank Gehry apparently was a good friend of hers. So they all design these beautiful things and it's all predicated on a qualitative as opposed to a quantitative brief. But this is the feeling you need to create in these spaces as opposed to any this room, that room, and this room.

Ryan Schwartz: 18:01 - 18:29

Yeah, that's, that's a different approach and I kind of like that. Um, and it just kind of made me think of, you know, sometimes a client will come to you and they, they know what their problem is and, and maybe it's the, the qualitative approach, you know, we know what we're, we're trying to achieve, but what do you do if a client comes to you with a potential project and they don't necessarily know what the problem is? I guess you, you sort of, you're working with them to teach them what the problem is or learn together what the problem is. Maybe that's a better way to describe it.

Mitchell Hall: 18:30 - 20:43

Yeah, I guess, I guess it depends on how you define what the problem is. Um, I think they, they, they're, they're clearly looking for an architect to help them provide a solution to the problem that you're referring to. Um, and you know, so, so again, it's, it's, as you know, it's a very lengthy, uh, an iterative process where you work with them closely to kind of help I guess it's mutual, you help each other define what the problem is in order to come to the solution. And it might be that you end up starting to put solutions in front of them that aren't the right answer. And that again helps, you know, you narrow the search for the right solution. It, I think that's pretty rare though. I think they, they usually know, again, it comes down to, they, they know the kinds of spaces they need, the sizes of spaces they need, how much money they have to spend the schedule. And it's up to you to kind of pull it all together into sort of an intelligent, um, and hopefully beautiful solution, um, or part of that process. I mean, maybe another example we can use that crosses a bunch of boundaries is a project we did at the University of Waterloo for quantum computing and nanotechnology. Okay. So, you know, when I went into that, I had no idea what that was. I had studied physics in school, but I really had no idea. And so one of my colleagues bought me this book called Nanotechnology for Dummies. It had to be one of the most difficult books I've ever read in my life. But so very simply nanotechnology is a billionth of a meter and quantum computing is at an atomic scale. So this is about research people, really smart people, researchers trying to figure out how to make something that they can't actually see. And so there's all this instrumentation that's called metrology, where they actually try to analyze to see if they made what they thought they made, which is pretty fascinating when you think about it, right? Yeah. Anyway, so in order for me to solve that problem, I needed to understand what it was that we were trying to solve. Um, and of course there's all kinds of, you know, personalities and politics, and this is a university. So there's a, you know, there was a group from an engineering, uh, from the, um, from the engineering faculty. And then there was a private institute for quantum computing that was funded by, by RIM. So you have these two kinds of entities that needed to come together to, you know, to their mutual benefit.

Ryan Schwartz: 20:44 - 21:08

Yeah. And then that's a tricky one, right? Like, all right, how do we design a space for something that we can't see? And I mean, the client has a, like you said, they're the expert. You do have to listen to them. They sort of know what they're looking for and you can maybe surprise them with some solutions, but you are sort of just guiding them. Like they are, I don't know if you'd agree with this, if they're the client is kind of the author and the architect is the editor. I don't know. Is that a metaphor that hits home?

Mitchell Hall: 21:09 - 22:27

Um, in some cases, I would say that's true. I mean, maybe to carry on on this, this story, um, the client from the IQC side, who was good friends with Mike Lazaridis, who was, was rim, um, had actually studied under Stephen Hawking, um, French Canadian guy, really highly intelligent. And he loved, um, the, it's called the Newton Institute at Cambridge, where he studied with Stephen Hawking. And it was basically a very simple architectural idea of, uh, of, um, a space that, that, uh, allowed for kind of clear, like a collision space where by situating it, where, where it was in the building, it forced, um, it forced researchers to kind of interact because otherwise they're, they kind of live in their own little silos, right. But, you know, get together for coffee, food, whatever. And it was, it was a very simple idea and that he put that in front of us and said, this is something that worked really well for me. And so that doesn't deal with the actual science. Those are specialized labs. But this had to do with creating an environment for interdisciplinary interaction, which everybody is trying to do because of the benefits that come out of those kind of conversations. When you bring people from different disciplines together and they share ideas, it opens people's minds up. So that became kind of the heart of the IQC building at Quantum Nano.

Ryan Schwartz: 22:28 - 22:45

And it sounds like then, you know, if you have a good client that generally sort of understands what they're looking for, these sort of design solutions, the building itself, and it starts to reveal what they're valuing, um, what the organization values, and it's kind of pointing in that direction. Does that make sense?

Mitchell Hall: 22:46 - 22:48

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Ryan Schwartz: 22:48 - 23:31

And, um, stepping back to the idea of, of communication with clients in these complex spaces. And that sounds like a good example of a client that sort of knew what they're looking for. We want to, we want an informal space where we're going to have these, these relationships, um, sort of impromptu as people are bumping into each other in the hallways. And what about something, I know we mentioned this in our talk a few weeks ago about the National Ballet School and the client came to you and said they wanted a space that's a, the school itself is a 3D blank canvas. And that term stuck out in my mind and it's just, you know, how do you, how do you take that and run with it? That's a much more ambiguous starting point.

Mitchell Hall: 23:31 - 23:49

Yeah, so that was my interpretation of what he said. So it was Bob Surman, another amazing client, and he basically said, Mitch, what you have to do is build a vacuous void that a dancer feels compelled to fill with their performance.

Ryan Schwartz: 23:49 - 23:51

That's even more ambiguous.

Mitchell Hall: 23:51 - 25:32

Yeah. That was right up there with inspiring wellness. Incredibly abstract idea. But again, you can't see me, but I'm not a ballet dancer. It's not something I've ever done. It's not something I've ever perhaps aspired to do, probably because I couldn't do it. But it is another one of those situations where you, okay, so what is it that they do in one of these studios? For those people that have seen driving down Jarvis, you will see them. the dancers in the window practicing. It became essentially a 50 foot square and probably 20 to 30 foot high box that is the studio with a highly specialized sprung floor system, ballet bars, mirrors, all that sort of stuff. The basic things that come along with what you need to do to study ballet, but it became this blank canvas. And, and, you know, you learn things like when, when a dancer jumps up in the air and does a, you know, does a spin, they need to know where the horizon line is where they land. Otherwise they hurt themselves. So, you know, even the, the, the base condition at the base, you needed to be a very clearly defined line. So they knew when they were going to hit the floor. Right. So. But yeah, so that became the three-dimensional blank canvas. All the walls were initially white. We started to add some color later on, and then it had to have acoustic absorption. And what we tried to do was eliminate the visual noise, you know, like the typical stuff that you'd find in the space. In this case, it was things like speakers and, you know, I don't know, outlets and all that sort of stuff, right? You conceal it as much as possible, so you maintain the purity of the three-dimensional web-like canvas.

Ryan Schwartz: 25:33 - 25:51

And it is a very iterative process, like you mentioned. So that first conversation, when you come back with your first design, how does that go? When the client has no idea, you know, what to expect, they've given you this incredibly ambiguous brief to come back with something and, you know, how do you walk them through that first iteration?

Mitchell Hall: 25:52 - 27:23

So that was essentially Bob's critique of what we had done because we had come up with a design. Um, and he, he basically was, no, you don't get it. Um, you, you need to create this vacuous void. Yeah. And so, cause we were being architects, right? So we had this, we had a, uh, a cabinet in the corner where the kids put their shoes, their school bags and their street shoes and And it was made out of wood, and it sort of survived, but it was more of an architect's response to an environment where we didn't truly understand what it is that we were expected to do. So Bob's comment was a critique of what we had done. So we learned from that, and then we carried on. And again, it's iterative, so we come up back with other ideas. And as you move along, you finally get to the result that they were looking for. I mean, one of the things that's interesting about the ballet, and I know we talked about this the other day too, was it was this idea about, architectural idea about how you capture movement in a static, in a static architecture, a static fabric, right? And so that was something that we were sort of fascinated by. Um, and you know, it, it translated into various sort of material expressions in the building, but the fundamental thing was that you were always performing. So it had to do with, uh, locating windows and, and views of Jarvis streets, a perfect example where you're, you're constantly performing, right? Whether you're just studying in a class or whatever, but you're always being observed. You're always being, you're always performing, which is obviously fundamental to what a ballet dancer does, right? They have to be comfortable with an idea.

Ryan Schwartz: 27:24 - 27:31

Yeah, that's an interesting concept and gets them comfortable with kind of being on display and performing with distractions and things in the background.

Mitchell Hall: 27:31 - 29:03

So, yeah. Well, and I think we talked about this one too, Ryan, but like in that example, and again, this comes back to how, how you and a client move along through the process, the, the studios that face Jarvis street, uh, we came up with a, with a detail, a structural detail and a mechanical detail where we sort of, again, hit all the stuff. so it was out of view, and we took away what you'd normally find at the bottom of a window, let's call it a rad for lack of a better term, and we manipulated the structure so all that stuff was concealed and literally created a stage to the city so that the dancers, when you drive by, you see them practicing on the ballet bar and they're performing to the city. In that process, we had to come up with a different approach for the ballet bar, which is a very simple element that's part of the design of a typical studio. They basically had these two-by-fours on metal posts that look like truck rims at the bottom, and not knowing anything about it, I said, do those things work for you? Aren't those metal posts in your way when you're doing a rond de jambe, when you're spinning your leg? They said, yeah, but this is the way they've always been. I said, well, they don't have to be. you know, we're about to put miles of them into the building, we can come up with a better idea. So I worked closely with them to understand how they, how they use them. And we came up with a design, um, and then we mocked it up and, uh, and you can put it in front of them and they participated as it was processed. And, um, you know, all kinds of architects, design, Bali schools are apparently using it. So, but I don't get any royalties. Yeah.

Ryan Schwartz: 29:03 - 29:05

You should get a license on that.

Mitchell Hall: 29:05 - 29:06

Right.

Ryan Schwartz: 29:06 - 29:33

Um, Yeah. And that goes back to what you said before about just sort of approaching things with like a beginner's mind. You're, you're entering a new industry that you maybe don't know anything about, and you're taking a step back and sort of reassessing these things that are just, you know, have been accepted. It's like, well, this is the way we always do it. Um, any other examples where you can think of where you've sort of gone back and changed things and say, well, I think we can do this a little bit better. Um, anything else come to mind?

Mitchell Hall: 29:35 - 30:35

So one of the things that, um, that we should be doing more of, and we're trying is called a post occupancy evaluation. Right. So, you know, I, my joke is that our buildings are kind of like our children. You never kind of get rid of them. They're always there. They're always meaning something from you. Um, and so I maintain really good, really. Like I go to the, I've been back to the winery numerous times and it's now 25 years old and things are wearing out. And, you know, luckily they, they still, you still have a strong relationship and we help them out. We come back and we, we adjust accordingly. But I think it's really important, um, to, to learn whether or not the things that you put in place, sorry, I'm tapping the table. Um, the things that you put in place and the ideas that you had, whether or not they worked and whether or not we're successful. And that's not instantaneous. Usually that takes time, right? Um, and so that's a really important, um, you know, I think I'm, I'm trying to answer your question. That's a really important thing that we need to do as architects is go back and make sure our children are doing well.

Ryan Schwartz: 30:36 - 30:56

Yeah. No, and I think, um, that's come up on the podcast before, um, the idea of a post occupancy evaluation and that it's not done enough, first of all, But it's also a tricky thing to do sometimes. It's tough to get data, like you might have some anecdotal evidence and some stories and things, but yeah, how do you go about that?

Mitchell Hall: 30:57 - 32:13

So it's, I think I mentioned it earlier, I know I did for Bridgepoint, it's serious business and it can't be an architect evaluating their own work because there's obviously too much subjectivity in that. It needs to be a third party, it needs to be objective, and you need to pay for it. Um, it's actually, apparently it's mandated in Scotland for all their schools. They're required under law to do a post-occupancy evaluation. It's a great idea. So, it came to a breaking point. It was a PhD. Her name was Celeste Alvaro. Um, and she did this kind of rigorous study of, she did a pre-examination of the existing building before and then a post-occupancy evaluation. This is where she came up with the architecture, um, uh, improving patient outcomes by 25%, right? So that's what you need to do. I don't know that a lot of clients have the appetite or the bank account to handle that, but I think that ultimately it's hugely beneficial to everybody involved. And so we try to do it. Again, I come back to sort of evaluating your own work, but we go back and we essentially interview our clients. And hopefully they're completely transparent with you and tell you what works and what doesn't work. Right. So you can at least do that. And then as a consequence, if there's something you need to fix, you fix it. Right. So.

Ryan Schwartz: 32:14 - 32:21

Yeah, no, I think that's a great approach. And it's only going to benefit, you know, future projects, maybe the client, you know, with the next building.

Mitchell Hall: 32:22 - 32:22

Absolutely.

Ryan Schwartz: 32:22 - 32:49

I think it's a great idea. I like the idea of schools and mandating that. And it does seem maybe a little easier on, you know, institutional buildings like hospitals and schools where you can collect some data, but then yeah, something like maybe a winery too, actually, if you're, if you're talking sort of the factory side of things and you're measuring, you know, quantities and values, but on something like a ballet school, you know, how would you go about, maybe that one's just interviews. How would you go about evaluating that?

Mitchell Hall: 32:52 - 33:56

I think, I think the premise would be the same way. I mean, you, you'd go, you'd go back and, um, and you'd interview the teachers and the professors cause they, they obviously change over time, the instructors. Right. So we, you always get a new group in there. Um, but like, I don't think the, the, there's necessarily anything about the architecture that needed to change at the ballet school. It usually, it usually comes down to systems. Like systems do not last forever. They typically, their lifespan is sort of 25, 30 years, and then you have to start to replace them. Um, and you know, at that time you can look to, to upgrade them, improve the technology, try to do something that's more sort of a net zero from a carbon perspective, something more environmentally friendly. Um, but I don't know that there's anything in the ballet school that required, um, significant modifications other than the systems themselves. I mean, some of the spaces, uh, sort of changed the way they're used, but that's really just, that's more of an operational thing. And it's, it doesn't, it's not necessarily a failure of the architecture. It's an evolution of, of the way that they do things or their thinking.

Ryan Schwartz: 33:57 - 34:28

Right. Yeah. That's exactly what I was going to say too. Just an evolution of the processes within the building themselves. In terms of clients, you know, say you have a new client that comes in and you don't have a longstanding relationship with them. How do you go about establishing that level of trust? It is just, you know, that iterative process, the back and forth, time, lots of meetings and phone calls, but how do you start to establish that so that you know, you're trusting in their decisions and then you're also trusting in your decisions.

Mitchell Hall: 34:30 - 36:52

So there's, that's a really good question. And I can honestly tell you that, uh, I don't know that I've ever had a repeat client. I think every client I've ever had is, has been a new client. Uh, and it's usually cause it's a new project type for me. Um, and everyone is different as you know. Um, and you have to, it starts with, with a level of mutual respect, but, um, you've gone through essentially an, uh, an interrogation or interview process prior to getting the work. Very rarely does someone unless you're you know unless you're a stark attack that someone come along and have this project i want you to do. There's a lot of competition out there unfortunately these days fees seem to be the biggest driver which is really unfortunate. Because it should be qualitative not quantitative. But you've gone like in my experience the projects that we go after you're in competition with people that are equally capable of doing the work. And that's what gets you to the let's call it the finish line for lack of a better word and that's based on your credentials the work that you've done before your experience etc etc. What it comes down to is, I'm going to argue is a personality contest, right? And, and what, um, what differentiates one from another. And so a client needs to decide in very simple terms, whether or not a, they like you and B, they think you can, they can work with you and whether or not you're listening to them. I mean, I think that's a huge component. You have to be a good listener to be a good architect and unfortunately some architects just aren't. So when a client's picking an architect, those are the kind of things that they should be looking for. What's the portfolio look like? Do they like it? They check references obviously and then just getting to know the architect or their thinking. I mean the way that they think. Um, and whether or not they're, you know, they're really interested and they're listening to what it is that they have to say. So you've already kind of gone through this before you even get the job, right? And usually that's the reason you got the job in the first place because there's usually an interview. Um, and you know, they, they can be very stressful, but it's all about, um, selling yourself at the end of the day. So you've, you've already, there's a long winded answer, but you've already gone a long way to establishing a relationship with a client because they picked you because they want to work with you.

Ryan Schwartz: 36:52 - 37:06

Yeah, no, that's a good point. They've, they've done their homework generally, especially for these big complicated buildings. They're not just picking someone out of a hat. They're, they're pretty familiar with you and your work, and I'm sure they've probably talked to other clients, things like that. And hopefully they've done their homework, but.

Mitchell Hall: 37:07 - 37:26

Yeah. And it's, and it's, that's really important to them. Right. I mean, in a lot of cases, these buildings are sort of the culmination of a career or they're fundamental to who they are, um, as a person or as an institution. Right. So it's, it's, uh, it's, you know, I don't know. It's not, it's not, um, some minor, minor aspect of their life. It's something that's fairly significant.

Ryan Schwartz: 37:26 - 37:41

That's a pretty big deal. Yeah. And so how do you handle a disagreement? You know, you have a client and they think, you know, solution A is the way to go and you start to feel strongly that another solution is the way to go. How do you handle that conversation?

Mitchell Hall: 37:41 - 38:47

I was afraid you were going to ask me that question, right? And I don't know that I have a good answer for you. I mean, I think that you do your best to work with your client and clearly communicate your ideas and how you believe that they're responding to their needs. And, you know, there are instances where you're just not going to agree. At the end of the day, the client's right, right? And so sometimes you just sort of have to swallow your pride or find another way to solve the problem that meets, I guess that would be called a compromise. um that meets their needs and and that's something that you can live with um but you know that life is full of those kind of decisions right you just it's being an architect means being sort of a diplomat a lawyer uh you know an engineer whatever you know there's so many hats that we wear as architects and i think your ability to communicate clearly uh, is, is one, probably one of the most important qualities that a good architect can have. And that can get you through those, the kind of situations that you're referring to, um, and hopefully avoid them in the first place.

Ryan Schwartz: 38:48 - 39:25

Yeah. If you can explain your, your point of view and at least provide a rationale, sort of state your case for why you think something, you know, is the answer, then, um, you know, that's, that's all you can do at the end of the day. But yeah, they're ultimately the clients paying for it and they're the ones that are going to have to use the building and. And yeah, ultimately their choice. Is there anything that you wish that every client knew going into a process or maybe didn't know, but is there anything that, you know, in terms of the process or, you know, scheduling budgets, construction, even anything come to mind that just, you know.

Mitchell Hall: 39:26 - 40:35

We touched on it earlier, Ryan. I mean, what I would say is that I think, um, that clients should try to understand perhaps a little bit better what it is that architects do. Um, and, um, and have a level of, uh, sophistication and respect for just how difficult and complicated it is, what we do. Um, and all the architects out there will know exactly what I mean, but, um, I, I don't think people really know, um, exactly what we do and how we do it. And, and frankly, how hard it is. Um, um, to, to X, to, to do something really amazing. Right. I mean, you, I think you, it's easy to do a Walmart, um, or, you know, big box retail or something simple like that, but to do something really spectacular, really something that's sort of, um, that moves the dial, it makes, makes the world a better place that makes their lives better is a real challenge. And it requires a level of passion and rigor and effort, um, that is sort of above and beyond, um, you know, what you'd, I guess, otherwise do. And I mean, that's where I'm coming from and that's what this firm believes in. And I think that's, you know, otherwise, why bother, quite frankly.

Ryan Schwartz: 40:36 - 40:52

No, I think that's a really good answer because a lot of times, you know, a client might just hand off their, you know, their list of wants and needs and then you just kind of like you're sending it into a black box and you're expecting a design back in return and you have no idea what's going on behind the scenes.

Mitchell Hall: 40:54 - 41:13

The best thing about sort of the whole post-occupancy evaluation is hopefully the answer is, and I heard this from people that work at the winery, for example, I love going to work every day, Mitch. I love this building. And so that's great feedback. That's exactly what you want to hear as opposed to Mitch, I ate this and this doesn't work.

Ryan Schwartz: 41:15 - 41:36

And hopefully that more of the former and less of the latter. Yeah. You don't want to hear that with a brand new building. Oh, I hate going in there. That's, that's, that's not what you're looking for. No, exactly. So anyone that's, that's out there, maybe you sort of already answered this, but anyone that's out there looking to hire an architect, what advice would you give them? And maybe it's just sort of learning more about the process, but any, any advice come to mind?

Mitchell Hall: 41:36 - 42:16

Do your homework, do your homework, like, um, look at the work that they've done. Look at their portfolios. Um, talk to their previous clients, talk to them, uh, again, see if they're actually really engaged and listening and passionate about what it is that. that they're asking you to do. And, and frankly, shop around, you know, don't don't pick the first architect that, you know, comes to mind or is on the list. Talk to a number of different architects, educate, essentially, educate yourself as a client, to make sure because it's a big deal, right? And make sure you you've got the right uh, the right person, the right firm to do what it is that you want them to do. Um, that's what, that's what I would say.

Ryan Schwartz: 42:16 - 42:36

Like it's, it's a two way street, right? That's really good advice. Even for a, you know, a small project, you know, comparatively, if you're looking at like building a house or something like this is a huge portion of your, your first of all time, but also money and just your energy. A lot of your life is going into this project. So yeah, it's worth spending an extra few weeks or months just, you know,

Mitchell Hall: 42:38 - 43:01

And in that case, and in that case, um, I haven't actually done any residential stuff except for myself, but you use the word personal. It's, the house is hugely personal. So that, you know, you need to re you really need to like the person that you're, that's going to design the building for you. And they need to understand your, you know, your wants and your needs and, and your passions. Right. So it is very personal at that point, at that level.

Ryan Schwartz: 43:02 - 43:23

Yeah, it is. It's interesting in that, that relationship between an architect and a client does sometimes start to get, you know, beyond that professional level of business. There is kind of that personal connection because I think you have to, right. Especially with a house or something, but also with someone's business or, you know, you, you really need to understand that person and, and, and what they're going through and what they need.

Mitchell Hall: 43:24 - 43:27

Absolutely. Otherwise you're not doing your job. Absolutely.

Ryan Schwartz: 43:28 - 43:36

Exactly. Anything else you want to touch on? We sort of covered the gamut in terms of client stuff. Anything that we've left out that you want to touch on that comes to mind?

Mitchell Hall: 43:38 - 45:34

Um, not really. No. I mean, perhaps one thing that, that is part of, it goes back to an earlier question you had about how you, um, how you get to the bottom of what the problem is, uh, or what the, the, the solution is. It's called benchmarking. I don't know, you know what that is. And for those of out there that don't understand that, uh, a really valuable, um, idea or process that you can initiate early on in a project when you're getting to know your client and the client's getting to know your architect and the team is to go visit other projects, um, that are similar. Um, and you know, not only do they, the, again, it comes back to a client's ability to understand what is, what an architect's ideas are, you know, despite all the amazing kind of digital tools and things we have, nothing quite beats walking around a built project. Um, that has a similar kind of function or whatever, um, that, that, you know, and usually you curate that with them and you go and see a bunch of them. And if you spend a bunch of time with your client, we've done this recently for a project at the university of Lethbridge. We went to Vancouver and we went to Simon Fraser and, you know, visited a bunch of them. So even if they're not directly relevant, that FaceTime and that, you know, having drinks with them, having dinner with them, just talking to them on the bus and then going to projects and just talking about what works and what doesn't work. and interviewing the actual people that live in the building that you're looking at. And I'm not saying that they're your projects necessarily. More often than not, they're not. They're someone else's projects or a colleague or someone that you know. And that's hugely valuable in terms of, you know, it's kind of back to the winery thing that we talked about earlier, right? I mean, going to visit these things not only helps the architect, but it helps the client understand what it is perhaps that you're thinking or what they need. And they get ideas in the same way that an architect gets ideas, clients get ideas from those tours. So I think that's a really, that's perhaps the one thing that we didn't talk about that I think is really important.

Ryan Schwartz: 45:34 - 45:56

Yeah, I think that's good advice. And that sort of goes back to doing your homework, but also building that, that relationship beyond the professional level. Like you said, just that, that extra little bit of time together, you know, it's those informal conversations where you're not giving them a questionnaire, but you're, you just, it's very loose and easy. And that's where sometimes the good stuff comes up and people, you know, are free to be themselves.

Mitchell Hall: 45:57 - 46:39

Yeah. And you, and you get to know each other and, you know, like sort of share personal information about families and that sort of stuff. I mean, it's, it, like, remember, um, Ryan, that, and, and maybe it's just the projects that I'm working on, but I'm sure lots of my colleagues out there do the same thing. These things take a long time, right? I, most of the projects I've referred to, um, have taken close to 10 years. So that's a, that's a long term relationship. It's an important relationship. Yeah. And so it's really important that you get along and that you like each other and that, you know, and that you come out of it at the end with a level of respect and admiration that hopefully you've worked hard at getting.

Ryan Schwartz: 46:40 - 46:46

Yep. No, I like that. Yeah. Do your homework because you're, you're entering a long-term relationship. So keep that in mind if you're, you're hiring an architect.

Mitchell Hall: 46:46 - 46:47

So yeah, absolutely.

Ryan Schwartz: 46:48 - 48:02

Um, if people listening, if they want to learn more, if they want to get in touch, um, I'm assuming your, your office website is probably a good place to start. Um, yeah. Okay. So you can go to KPMB.com. Um, and that's great. I, thanks for taking the time to chat today. Um, if you're out there listening and you need to hire an architect, hopefully this was helpful. Like I said, do your homework and happy clients. You know, generally that means we'll have happy architects, better buildings, just good for everyone. It's wins all around. So that'll wrap things up for today. Thanks for listening. If you're enjoying Architecturally Speaking, you can leave us a review, share it with your friends. We'd really appreciate that. Share it with prospective clients. That's a good way to go as well. And all the episodes of Architecturally Speaking can be found wherever you get your podcasts, plus the OAA's YouTube channel. So check that out if you want to see the video version of today's chat. And of course, if you're interested in learning more about architecture, you can check out the Ontario Association of Architects website. They have lots of additional information there for architects and the general public. So that's a good place to go. You can visit oaa.on.ca or you can just search for the Ontario Association of Architects. And until next time, I'm Ryan Schwartz and this has been Architecturally Speaking. Bye for now.